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Unread 06-03-11, 06:34 PM   #1
TheGeek
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Rogue - PVP

I'm really getting interested in PVP with my NE Rogue, but having some concerns.

I wouldn't call myself an "expert" but I'm pretty well versed in Assassination-- I love it.

I hear A LOT of talk about Sub being the supreme PVP spec but I'm wondering, why can't I PVP as Assassination? Is there really only one "true" PVP spec?

I tried Sub last night and I was just so royally confused. In and out of all the stealth crap was throwing my runs off because of my bars constantly flipping in and out. I understand that ambush and backstab are one of your primary hits but damn if you aren't behind the enemy you get stuck with hemorrhage.

Don't get me wrong-- few tests on dummy I saw 10k instant burst dps in sub, but then it slowly dropped as I got more and more confused.

With assassination it takes me a few seconds to reach that but I'm not fumbling over keys or abilities because I know it very well.

I don't know if gear is an issue too-- my ilvl is 356 and I only got three pieces of PVP gear with 965 resil. I still working on honor points and gear. I just don't want to downgrade to 339 gear.

Could resilience really be THAT huge of a factor? I am going up against people who are for the most part arena players or fully geared PVP players.
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Unread 06-03-11, 07:00 PM   #2
thebigmunch
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Subtlety is so much better than Mutilate for reasons other than damage. Mutilate has better sustained damage, for sure, but anyone who is just decent at PvP can stop a Mutilate rogue from doing any damage at all. They are easily kited or CC'd. Without preparation they have much fewer cooldowns.

Subtlety has what is called a higher skill cap. Meaning that it has a higher potential ceiling. Part of that is having to be behind a target for your major attacks. You have to do a lot of setup as Subtlety before really bursting an opponent as opposed to just popping vendetta and spamming abilities. You need Recuperate up, have your opponent stunned, use cooldowns to stay on your opponent, etc. You should check out sites like skill-capped.com or arenajunkies.com for more info on how to actually play in PvP.

Don't worry about fumbling over keys when switching to something new, it's gonna happen. Just get used to it.

As for resilience, yes it's that important. You need 3k resilience before you can even start taking anything away from what you're doing in PvP situations. If anyone who knows any better finds out you have such low resilience, you will just be farmed in whatever PvP situation you find yourself in.

PS: Don't worry about dps in PvP. It's all about damage at the right times. DPS is for PvE.
Glyph Preparation instead of sprint for a 2nd Smoke Bomb and Dismantle. It's much better for you.
Get an Unheeded Warning to add some damage to your Sub spec.

Last edited by thebigmunch : 06-03-11 at 07:03 PM.
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Unread 06-03-11, 07:12 PM   #3
TheGeek
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Thanks Munch!

Any recommended talent setups to start with?

I was using this guys spec I happen to find on an arena forum who rated him pretty high.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lent/secondary
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Unread 06-03-11, 07:19 PM   #4
Lily.Petal
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Originally Posted by TheGeek View Post
Thanks Munch!

Any recommended talent setups to start with?

I was using this guys spec I happen to find on an arena forum who rated him pretty high.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lent/secondary
That's the typical Sub Rogue build atm, I personally prefer a small stealth buff, moving 1 point from imp ambush to nightstalker.

I've been playing rogues for many many years, and I love the class. ^^v

Get an Unheeded Warning to add some damage to your Sub spec.
Unless I was a Human rogue I would never use unheeded warning over a trinket I can pop at will. Some people like to use this, but I believe it's just not enough unless you were a human for the free trinket and can use 2 DPS trinkets.
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Last edited by Lily.Petal : 06-03-11 at 07:24 PM.
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Unread 06-03-11, 07:24 PM   #5
TheGeek
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Originally Posted by Lily.Petal View Post
That's the typical Sub Rogue build atm, I personally prefer a small stealth buff, moving 1 point from imp ambush to nightstalker.

I've been playing rogues for many many years, and I love the class. ^^v
Same here.. It's a toss up between my Paladin and my Rogue on which one I want to run. I LOVED my Rogue for DPS. I'm pretty much geared out and I don't raid as often as I like so I been pondering the idea of PVP with Resident.
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Unread 06-04-11, 10:42 AM   #6
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PvP ≠ PvE

Just like thebigmunch said, you have to outplay and/or "outlive" the other team, not just tunnel vision DPS something down. Especially not as a rogue. You got all that utility for a reason - use it. That's why Sub >>> Assassination, even more utility and a bit more survivability.
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Unread 06-04-11, 01:18 PM   #7
thebigmunch
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I guess I could put it even better.

It's key to recognize that the Rogue's role and greatest strength in PvP right now is providing utility and setup for others in a team PvP setting.

They are buffing our damage outside of Shadow Dance by a little bit since it is laughable right now, but just enough to make us not be a complete joke. Frankly, that's all we need with our current toolkit to not have to ride the coat tails of stronger classes in 3's.

It's not a style that is for everybody, though. It certainly takes getting used to if you play other melee dps.
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Unread 06-04-11, 02:02 PM   #8
Dawn
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It's sad that there are almost no good rogues on my server, it's a lot of fun playing comps like RRP (rogue ret priest), due to lots of control/CC. The rogue can help the Ret stick on the target and set everything up for a kill > smoke bomb/stun/CC while the Ret can burst the target down.

That being said, I don't see much rogues around these days in arena. Not sure what's up there. Might be due to so many comps like TSG being so ridiculously easier to play, dunno.
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Unread 06-04-11, 06:32 PM   #9
thebigmunch
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Yeah, I've been Glad on Rogue in every season (and currently well within that range this season) as well as Resto Druid (every season I've actually played arenas with him), and a Frost Mage I just leveled in Cata and currently at 2400+.

The reason you don't see Rogues as much is because almost every other dps class/spec is notably stronger and easier to play right now. As I said, we have to ride the coat tails of a much stronger dps class to make it at high ratings. Even RMP is getting more difficult. I play RMP, RLS, and RLD right now. Last couple weeks I have been playing some Rogue/Death Knight/Priest at 2800+. Right now, Locks and DKs are ridiculous and that's why you see those comps reaching higher rankings. But, at that level of play, it's quite sad that I often have to leash myself to a pillar and/or be babysat by my healer in order to not be insta-gibbed after popping my trinket.

So, compare that to comps that don't have a rogue as one of the dps classes and you'll notice how much easier AND stronger they are. TSG or any other melee/physical cleave don't require much CC usage and has insane damage output with little-to-no effort (I've played a TreeSG this season). Wizard Cleaves have insane CC and insane damage (Currently playing Shaman/SPriest/Mage).

The sad thing is that with a smallish damage buff outside of Shadow Dance, Rogues would be about where most high-level arena pvpers believe classes should be. It's just that every other class is well above that strength. It's partially a byproduct of the difference in skill-caps and its effect on lower tier players' success in arenas/RBGs. Rogue is continually considered the most difficult class to play with good reason. But Blizzard is currently balancing things around the more casual/lesser player to keep the business rolling in. That's why they will never even come close to being balanced enough to get back into professional gaming tournaments.

PS About Unheeded Warning on non-humans. It's a choice (obviously you still keep the Medallion) to use it over the Agility on-use. However, there are some reasons to do so. You will only get to use the on-use once every other Shadow Dance. If you happen to macro it into your Shadow Dance, you could waste it when using Dance to peel or re-sap. Unheeded Warning buffs the weaker damage we have which is outside of our extremely comlicated burst. That extremely complicated burst means that it is often easily countered by competent players. And of course the reason to use the Agility on-use is to use it along every other Shadow Dance for a bunch of extra bursth. I'm not saying use one over the other. I haven't had to make that choice (I'm human). But there are some reasons to use both.

Last edited by thebigmunch : 06-04-11 at 06:38 PM.
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Unread 06-04-11, 07:05 PM   #10
Lily.Petal
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I have the other problem, I can't find a good team for myself :<

All the good healers have already been taken already. I was doing SRW (shaman rogue warlock) and we got a good group going, but our lock transfered and the shaman never logged in again. Was a sad day for me. I know I am capable of getting high ratings if I just had the team mates.
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Unread 06-04-11, 07:57 PM   #11
Dawn
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All the good players have already been taken already.
Fixed that for you.

Let's just say this damn season is lasting WAY to long, already. And it's not going to end anytime soon. Not before the the next PvE Tier is going to be released.

I'm currently playing Arena on my Ret Pala with a Priest and we need to look for a (new) third player every damn week, it's annoying. Even more so since everyone and his mother wants to play TSG or another stupidly boring FoTM style comp, which makes it harder for our 2 classes to find a good matching team member, since we prefer playing together and not just a FoTM comb.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

"neeh the game wont be remembered as the game who made blizz the most money, it will be remembered as the game who had the most QQ'ers that just couldnt quit the game for some reason..."

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Unread 06-04-11, 08:28 PM   #12
Lily.Petal
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Originally Posted by Dawn View Post
Fixed that for you.

Let's just say this damn season is lasting WAY to long, already. And it's not going to end anytime soon. Not before the the next PvE Tier is going to be released.

I'm currently playing Arena on my Ret Pala with a Priest and we need to look for a (new) third player every damn week, it's annoying. Even more so since everyone and his mother wants to play TSG or another stupidly boring FoTM style comp, which makes it harder for our 2 classes to find a good matching team member, since we prefer playing together and not just a FoTM comb.
I love seeing FoTM teams only because they rage when they cannot break like 1700 or 2000 because they are just horrible. Once they get into the serious arena fights they can't do anything at all.
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