Quantcast Why is WowMatrix still around? - WoWInterface
Thread Tools Display Modes
11-05-14, 07:08 PM   #1
Ketho
A Molten Giant
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 846
Why is WowMatrix still around?

I noticed this discussion on mmochamp (concerning the Curse Client, ads and Minion). But I wonder why so many people still advocate using WowMatrix. Why is it still around anyway, after all the mess that had happened years ago? Or are they nowadays hosting the addons themselves and complying to the addon licenses?

Old threads:
 
11-05-14, 08:53 PM   #2
Digital_Utopia
A Flamescale Wyrmkin
 
Digital_Utopia's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 110
I think there's always a certain subset of any community, that cares more about what they want, than whether it's right or fair. On top of that, as long as the drawbacks of not changing, are significantly worse than the effort of changing, many people will simply continue on using what they're comfortable with.

At least that's my theory.
__________________
 
11-05-14, 10:41 PM   #3
Rilgamon
Premium Member
 
Rilgamon's Avatar
Premium Member
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 670
The people I asked said the matrix installer simply works. It takes not long to show them different when it comes to updating many addons that aren't popular but everyone who ran into trouble installing curse-client knows what a pita it is to find out why.
__________________
The cataclysm broke the world ... and the pandas could not fix it!
 
11-05-14, 11:16 PM   #4
Fizzlemizz
I did that?
 
Fizzlemizz's Avatar
Premium Member
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 857
SolidIce/WoWMatrix won't necessarily go away although I'd be surprised if at least SolidIce isn't still leeching from Curse. I could be wrong...
__________________
Fizzlemizz
Maintainer of Discord Unit Frames and Discord Art.
Author of FauxMazzle and Move Pad Plus.
 
11-06-14, 12:04 AM   #5
Torhal
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Torhal's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,183
Originally Posted by Fizzlemizz View Post
SolidIce/WoWMatrix won't necessarily go away although I'd be surprised if at least SolidIce isn't still leeching from Curse. I could be wrong...
WoWMatrix still does as well, but only the AddOns which have permissive licenses; GPL, MIT, BSD, Public Domain, Creative Commons, etcetera. They're the main reason many authors switched to using All Rights Reserved and similarly restrictive licenses.
__________________
Whenever someone says "pls" because it's shorter than "please", I say "no" because it's shorter than "yes".

Author of Revelation, Spamalyzer, TravelAgent, Volumizer, and many other AddOns.
 
11-06-14, 04:27 AM   #6
Ketho
A Molten Giant
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 846
This is one of the drawbacks of open source / permissive licenses then... WowMatrix is there to stay apparently. If they made their client open source, used p2p (like Popcorn Time) and had better crawlers it might even be superior

I believe in open source / creative commons. All my addons are public domain because honestly, I didn't care. Good things such as Thingiverse, Arduino and Lua come to mind. But not when sites or clients such as WowMatrix keep leeching FREE ADDONS while having gold seller ads on their website

The worst part is that most people don't even seem to care. Although, this made me realize how I have a different standard and still casually download cars from torrent sites

Sorry for reviving this, long dead discussion

Last edited by Ketho : 11-06-14 at 04:39 AM.
 
11-06-14, 03:14 PM   #7
elals29
A Wyrmkin Dreamwalker
 
elals29's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 52
I stopped using wow matrix YEARS ago after I found out they was leeching addons without people permission. I don't support stealing.
 
11-06-14, 06:10 PM   #8
Phanx
Cat.
 
Phanx's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,586
Originally Posted by Ketho View Post
I have a different standard and still casually download cars from torrent sites
I lol'ed. I, too, download cars from torrent sites. However, I feel that's a bit different, because the things I torrent aren't free to begin with, and in some cases, are simply not (legally) available at all (for example, old TV shows that never get released to DVD/whatever because the rightsholder doesn't think it would be profitable enough).

By contrast, WoW addons are completely free, so it's not like you "need" to pirate them because you can't afford all the addons you want. The root cause for addon leech sites like WowMatrix and SolidIce isn't user demand -- it's greedy operators who see an easy way to make a quick buck from ad impressions by convincing clueless users they're a better source for addons than legitimate sites.

While it may have been true that WowMatrix was a better addon installer/updater than the Curse Client 5 years ago, I just don't think that's true anymore -- the Curse Client is certainly not a thing of beauty, but it does what it says on the tin, and is so simple to install and use a toddler could do it -- and WM/SI users are certainly at a disadvantage when it comes to selection. The only reason these people keep running/launching these sites is to make money for themselves.
__________________
Author/maintainer of Grid, PhanxChat, oUF_Phanx, and many more.
Troubleshoot an addonTurn any code into an addonMore addon resources
Need help with your code? Post all of your actual code! Attach or paste your files.
Please don’t PM me about addon bugs or code questions. Post a comment or forum thread instead!
 
11-09-14, 05:46 PM   #9
ronburgundyy
A Deviate Faerie Dragon
 
ronburgundyy's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 13
Hello All,

I hope all those in attendance had an enojoyable Blizzcon.

I want to honor Cairenn's wishes about not promoting on WoWInterface, but seeing as we are being discussed, I hope this reply and any futhers ones in this thread are allowed / warranted.

I understand SolidICE did not get off on a good start, but I think we are making efforts to mend those ties, if they are being received well or not, I am not sure, my chances to interact with authors has been unfortunately limited.

Ide really like to adress this quote in particular:

it's greedy operators who see an easy way to make a quick buck from ad impressions by convincing clueless users they're a better source for addons than legitimate sites.
I am not sure how WoWMatrix operates these days so I can't comment on their practices, but could you please elaborate on what makes SITE A legit and SolidICE not legit?

SolidICE is adhering to all licenses at this point, and has been for some time, as stated by Torhal, if a author does not agree with the restrictions that a license provides, they can use a more restrictive license such as All Rights Reserved. I'm confused why you would use a non restrictive license if you did not agree with its conditions.

With the first portion of your quote Phanx, you mention how these sites are looking to make a quick buck. And i will not argue that there of-course is financial motivation, but is that not at least one of the motivations behind Curse and WoWInterface. I am sure the Devs for these two sites are not working for free and eating Ramen for dinner every night, at least I would hope not. Whether SolidICE, Curse, Or WoWInterface provides the best service, experience, or tools for the authors is something the authors ultimately will decide, but I don't think that because Site A does not currently provide all of the tools Site B provides, that it makes Site A illigetimate, or that they offer nothing to a prospective user base.

We are working to not only Financially motivate ourselves, but to transfer that financial profits to the addon authors who worked so hard to create those addons. I won't go into any details of that as I don't want to cross Cairenn's wishes, but the information can be found on our site.

I hope we are able to have this discussion.

Thanks
-Ron

Last edited by ronburgundyy : 11-09-14 at 06:15 PM.
 
11-09-14, 06:37 PM   #10
Phanx
Cat.
 
Phanx's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,586
Originally Posted by ronburgundyy View Post
I understand SolidICE did not get off on a good start, but I think we are making efforts to mend those ties...
Too little, too late. You don't get to steal my car and drive it around town, then return it when I call the cops, then steal it again because you forgot which cars you'd already joyridden, then return it again when I call your mom, and then expect us to be friends. Not even if you took it through the carwash and filled up the gas tank and say you're really, really sorry. That's just not how it works... especially when you're constantly accompanied by a loud-mouthed jackass who can't stop insulting everyone and pissing on everything.

Originally Posted by ronburgundyy View Post
... could you please elaborate on what makes SITE A legit and SolidICE not legit?
Are you serious? Your first move was to break the law and trample on authors' wishes. Your second move was to do it again because your theft-bot was poorly written. Your third move was to offer absolutely nothing to addon authors for months after this terrible opening act, giving everyone time to firmly cement that bad impression in their minds. Sure, you've stopped the worst of your bad behavior, and gotten around to implementing some actual features, but again -- too little, too late.

And you're still giving authors a big middle finger with this statement:

Originally Posted by ronburgundyy View Post
... if a author does not agree with the restrictions that a license provides, they can use a more restrictive license such as All Rights Reserved. I'm confused why you would use a non restrictive license if you did not agree with its conditions.
There's a difference between "doing the bare minimum the law requires" and "doing what's right". If you really wanted addon authors to view you as a legitimate operation, you'd respect their wishes -- even if you don't have to. The law doesn't forbid me from slathering my naked body in pig blood, covering up my naughty bits with pork chops and bacon, and doing a pole dance in front of my local mosque or synagogue -- but that doesn't mean I'm out there with my meat bikini and my stripper pole every Friday and Saturday. Similarly, I don't blast loud music right up until 11 PM, and I do yield my seat on the train to little old ladies.

Originally Posted by ronburgundyy View Post
I don't think that because Site A does not currently provide all of the tools Site B provides, that it makes Site A illigetimate, or that they offer nothing to a prospective user base.
Of course not. It's not your site's features, or lack thereof, that anyone objects to. It's the way you chose to go about launching and running it.
__________________
Author/maintainer of Grid, PhanxChat, oUF_Phanx, and many more.
Troubleshoot an addonTurn any code into an addonMore addon resources
Need help with your code? Post all of your actual code! Attach or paste your files.
Please don’t PM me about addon bugs or code questions. Post a comment or forum thread instead!
 
11-09-14, 07:17 PM   #11
ronburgundyy
A Deviate Faerie Dragon
 
ronburgundyy's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 13
Are you serious? Your first move was to
I can't fix the past, and if I had a time machine of course I would go back and do things differently, but thats not possible. I'm really talking about where we stand now as the past is an unfortunate fact we have to deal with. I respect your opinion to be upset with us and I 100% understand why. I'm not looking to discuss the past, but the present and the future.

Your third move was to offer absolutely nothing to addon authors for months
If we want to be accurate, it was about 1 month. Not months.

If you really wanted addon authors to view you as a legitimate operation, you'd respect their wishes
I really have no way to identify an authors wishes other than their license, other than PMing each and every one and introducing myself, but that is not allowed for obv reasons. I really don't understand the "this license go against my wishes, but i'm going to use it anyways". My question still stands on why you would use a license with terms that don't represent your wishes. A chosen license should represent your wishes.

Many of these open source permissive licenses specifically state that hosting is unrestricted, and allowed, its not that these licenses are saying "that not illegal", they are specifically saying "that is allowed, I am allowing and inviting you to do this". For that reason I feel your examples don't really accurately represent a valid comparison.

Some authors which have open source permissive license have asked us to remove them, and I gladly do so. I haven't ignored any authors direct requests to remove their addons. I know Fizzle's stance on this, they shouldn't even have to ask, but this goes back to the using an appropriate license discussion.

Can you give me some insight Phanx on why you would use a open source license but also prefer restrictions on hosting? I know alot of your addons are ARR and this might not apply to you, but do you have any opensource addons, if so, do those licenses not represent your wishes?

Whether SolidICE hosting opensource addons is moral or not is for each person to decide for themselves, and I can see your opinion quite clearly, a more relevant discussion I feel is about which license authors choose, why, and if they represent their wishes, and if not, why would they choose such a license.

Last edited by ronburgundyy : 11-09-14 at 07:30 PM.
 
11-09-14, 07:46 PM   #12
Fizzlemizz
I did that?
 
Fizzlemizz's Avatar
Premium Member
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 857
Originally Posted by ronburgundyy View Post
I know Fizzle's stance on this, they shouldn't even have to ask,
This comment is as disingenuous as the rest of it.

I didn't have to ask because I don't host on Curse. If I did, there is every possibility I would have been
made to ask.
__________________
Fizzlemizz
Maintainer of Discord Unit Frames and Discord Art.
Author of FauxMazzle and Move Pad Plus.

Last edited by Fizzlemizz : 11-09-14 at 09:38 PM.
 
11-09-14, 10:25 PM   #13
Phanx
Cat.
 
Phanx's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,586
Your actions have shown quite clearly that do not actually care about the wishes of addon authors, so whether or not hobbyists chose the "best" software license for their free MMO UI mod doesn't seem particularly relevant. Most addon authors are neither professional programmers nor lawyers, but you're nitpicking over legal terms rather than considering what the creators of the content you're aiming to monetize actually want done with their content.

You keep trying to brush off your mistakes with "that's in the past, can't we just forget about it and be friends?" but I've never seen any post that sounded like you were genuinely sorry for your mistakes, or really understood why addon authors were upset, only sorry to have been called out on it and sorry that it's tarnished your site's reputation, and puzzled as to why we all just couldn't see how you were really doing us a big favor. Your public response to every request to remove addons from your site that I've seen has had more of a "well fine, if you reeeeeeally mean it, but please change your mind" vibe, and the responses from your co-siterunner Tiny are flat-out rude and insulting.

Originally Posted by ronburgundyy View Post
I really don't understand the "this license go against my wishes, but i'm going to use it anyways". My question still stands on why you would use a license with terms that don't represent your wishes. A chosen license should represent your wishes.
People who choose open-source licenses for software generally do so not because they specifically want to encourage everyone under the sun to redistribute their software, but because they want to encourage other developers to tinker and reuse their code.

I'd guess that many, if not most, addon authors who chose an open-source license dedicated absolutely zero thought to whether they wanted (arguably) unethical sites redistributing their work without asking first or even letting them know, and just thought "hey, I benefitted a lot from looking at other people's code, and maybe even used some of it in my addon, I want other people to be able to benefit from my code the same way".

Personally, I did research and wrote my own license, but not everyone has the time or ability to do that, or is even aware they can do that.

Originally Posted by ronburgundyy View Post
Can you give me some insight Phanx on why you would use a open source license but also prefer restrictions on hosting? I know alot of your addons are ARR and this might not apply to you, but do you have any opensource addons, if so, do those licenses not represent your wishes?
My license does not qualify as "open source" according to the OSI definition. I'm very happy for my code to be in the public domain, for anyone to do whatever they want with, but I don't want my addons in the public domain. Dealing with bug reports that turn out to be caused by some random guy's modded version of a release from 3 years ago is a waste of my time and a waste of the user's time, and restricting redistribution conveniently also locks out leech sites. However, anyone is free to do whatever they want with my code -- including copy and paste all of it into a new addon -- as long as my name and my addon's name are not associated with it. Since I wrote it myself, I feel it is a reasonably accurate representation of my wishes.

Unfortunately, that accuracy did not stop you from leeching my addons even after I asked you to stop, because you continued to use a flawed "opt out" model (all licenses are okay except this one) rather than a more robust "opt in" model (only these licenses are okay) and it's been my experience in dealing with other sites and other addon authors that very few people even know what words like "redistribution" mean, so I've really come to view the whole thing as largely pointless, and am just going with a straight-up "all rights reserved" for my newer addons since it's much more widely known that "all rights reserved" means "no".
__________________
Author/maintainer of Grid, PhanxChat, oUF_Phanx, and many more.
Troubleshoot an addonTurn any code into an addonMore addon resources
Need help with your code? Post all of your actual code! Attach or paste your files.
Please don’t PM me about addon bugs or code questions. Post a comment or forum thread instead!
 
11-09-14, 10:59 PM   #14
Seerah
Fishing Trainer
 
Seerah's Avatar
WoWInterface Super Mod
Featured
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,436
Alright, I think that's enough of the back and forth here... Move along folks, and enjoy the rest of your night (or day).
__________________
"You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Things Are As They Are." -Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

 

WoWInterface » General Discussion » General WoW Chat » Why is WowMatrix still around?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off