Supporters?

[Petrah]

I mean no disrespect, but you have a funny way of showing your "commitment".

[Sepioth]

Originally Posted by carboniteaddon Decreased development does not mean no development. On the day we say Carbonite is dead or Blizzard says WoW is dead, you will know it. Until then, it is just speculation.

Yes decreased development does not USUALLY mean no development. BUT lack of updates and responses here can lead to SPECULATION that your addon is dead. And speculation of Carb being DEAD is doing nothing but hurting any type of donations you may receive. Less donations mean less motivation to work on Carbonite, 9 month commitment or not.

Who is going to donate (except for the few who hope it will get development news or responses to reappear) to a project that has the appearance of abandonment?

You haven't even done anything with the Voting system you implemented. I have yet to see ANYTHING come of it. I have not seen any voting results. I have not seen anything in the list even being talked about. Why donate for the ability to voice our opinions on where development leads too when we do not see any results?

One thing you need to realize. In the WoW addon world 99% of the addons that die give no warning they are being abandoned. The author(s) just disappear. The lack of updates and responses to their users is a good sign the devs abandoned the project. VERY few authors announce the death of their addons. People just move on and find the next big replacement. By the time any update comes along they have already found their replacement and I'm sure few revert back. I used to use Cartographer 3. It was buggy and hardly updated at the time. Then I saw Carbonite. I never looked back at Carto3 even AFTER it was updated. I never even looked at it's release notes.

Product support is a must. If you want you users to have faith and PAY you to do a job you need to communicate. Let us know that you still exist. Come in here once in a while to help US, the many users who answer issues with Carb, answer those questions. Don't come here after a few weeks of silence answer a few questions and leave again. Where would Carb be if we, as a community didn't step up to the plate and help be your customer support? Chances are it would have been dead a long time ago.

Come in here once and a while with a status update. Maybe tell us that you are testing on the PTR and things a working great. At least hearing that would have stopped a lot of the "Card is dead" talk.

But I'm done talking about this ... hopefully you understand where YOUR customers are coming from and try harder to support your product.

Good luck with Carb's future.

[Sythalin]

Originally Posted by carboniteaddon Development was not and will not be stopped for at least 9 more months. I have made a part time commitment to our company for that time period. Regardless of what other projects I am working on, development on Carbonite will continue. As per that commitment, I have spent the last 3 days doing this: Added winshow console command to show, hide or toggle windows. Fixed map zone selection staying disabled when Esc key used to close a menu. Fixed collapsed quest headers in Blizzard log being expanded. Fixed Watch List quest item keybinding being set and frames being swapped on each update. Changes for patch 3.2: Added support for Hrothgar's Landing zone. Added support for Isle of Conquest zone. Fixed error from rename of GetDifficultyColor. Fixed error from missing function UnitIsPlusMob. Fixed Blizzard quest log detail frame sometimes showing. Fixed Info window BG cancel time always showing 0. Also I have researched the new Blizzard quest POI system and written some experimental code. Researched instance maps and have Violet Hold working on the Carb map using the Blizzard art and it shows your location in the instance. It needs a few more UI changes and then adding the data for each Northrend map, which I would like to get done for the next release. Decreased development does not mean no development. On the day we say Carbonite is dead or Blizzard says WoW is dead, you will know it. Until then, it is just speculation.

Glad to finally get a response and see some "new" stuff, but will we ever get fixes to other long existing bugs? Like the checkboxes in the options never working correctly (my minimap is STILL docking indoors with all the options UNCHECKED, no other minimap addons)? Or the chat spam that still occurs when you disable the channel on your chat window (using Chatter, fyi)?

Typical User Point Of View:

It seems that dev is revolved around just keeping the mod functional and that's about it. As pointed out, what about the voting system? If I recall, the end result was improvement on the gathering system of the mod. I don't see anything in those notes about any improvements on that.

Past 3 days? Yer kidding right? And what about the last 2.5 MONTHS since the last update? On top of that, I commend you on your cleverness of "at least 9 more months", giving yourselves a "well, you were informed 9 months ago that we may stop...". Mathmatically, I'm pretty sure that's right around the time that any previously subscribed user (pre-Blizz policy, starting when it was implemented to now) would have said subscription expire. Just enough time to avoid any lawsuits for failure to provide a product paid for....

Listen, I'm really not attempting a full blown bashing here (even though it looks like it). I'm just giving a users point of view in regards to this matter. It's fine if the mod is going to stay "as is as long as it simply works", just please don't keep making promises that aren't kept. And until users start seeing some updates, this is going to keep receiving flak.

[avid]

Right, because keeping it functional involves the following...

Also I have researched the new Blizzard quest POI system and written some experimental code. Researched instance maps and have Violet Hold working on the Carb map using the Blizzard art and it shows your location in the instance. It needs a few more UI changes and then adding the data for each Northrend map, which I would like to get done for the next release.

Considering Blizzard has just pulled their "quest helping" code today in the recent build, I'm sure that may have effects on what the authors were planning or trying to do. Once again, we have Blizzard changing things up, meanwhile everyone here seems to complain that they're not on the PTR testing it or something. Well, here's a good reason why for one: what's being tested isn't exactly set in stone and could be pulled or changed at any time. At least for now, it looks like we may either see some major improvements to Blizzard's "quest helping" feature in the near future, or not at all even until after 3.2.

Anyhow, it does seem one of the features we requested was getting instance maps for Northrend working. Seems they are indeed working on it, and that one of the features we voted for will be making its appearance in the next update, if everything goes right.

[Petrah]

I'm in full agreement with Sepioth's post. I feel exactly the way he does, and couldn't of stated it better myself.

[Faldiin]

I am in total agreement with Sepioth with the lack of updates and support. I am a paid subscriber. With blizz making there change they have made, I feel I was given a boot for my paid service.

I really enjoy the addon but the lack of support and updates have put this addon in the Dead addon area. It is up to the Dev to fix this issue. It still work but I cant plan my updates for my addon's when I have one that is not being updated. Even a Beta would give me a chance to work on my addon and give feedback. So now I am sitting here looking at what I can do to replace this addon.

Faldiin

[carboniteaddon]

Originally Posted by Silenia I mean no disrespect, but you have a funny way of showing your "commitment".

I'm not easily offended. Hopefully you won't be dissed by my ramblings below...

If someone commits to cutting your grass once a month, are you going to complain that they should be cutting it everyday? You act like we said we will put out a new version once a week or month, when we have never said any such thing. Most commitments have boundaries, they are not some nebulous generic thing.

My commitment to the company (not really you) was to keep Carb working for 1 year, when I was reduced to part time status. I am doing that. It currently works fine. When patch 3.2 comes out it will break, so I am working on having it fixed before the patch is released. I am testing on the PTR, since I could not know about 3.2 problems or test the 3.2 fixes that I previously posted about, without being on the PTR.

Donations are voluntary and should be based on previous work. If Joe spent 1000 hours working on ZMod and I use it and feel compelled to donate, then I should be donating based on his time spent. I think many people are donating toward the future, thinking they are getting all the past work and compelling the author to keep working on it, thus also getting the future work, when that author may actually decide to do something else and is under no obligation to do additional work to his addon.

I think the voting system is flawed, by the fact that you are giving us your opinion on the future, but yet donating on what should be past performance. They are really two different things combined, which is confusing. Selling something was much simpler. You give me $x. I give you y. A subscription was just a time based version of that, also adding the "and you get any updates to y during that time".

Blizzard has forced us to this vague donation system. A definition from www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/donation says:

"the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution"

A gift? Most appropriate definition seems to be:

"something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation"

Yet there was compensation, since you are using our addon. Thanks Blizzard for reducing us to this screwed up system.

My part time pay and cut of donations does not pay the bills. It is not bad, but it did require me to make a new company, which made an additional commitment to another company, which allows me be meet the commitment to my wife and kids to pay the bills, both now and into the future. God willing of course. The future is not really in any of our feeble hands.

Such fun. It does give you guys something to talk about, since the forums have been rather boring of late.

In summary; We are very happy to have people donating. They have donated more than we expected. We planned to just put Carbonite on life support for a year and see what happens. Since the donations were good, we decided to do more to the addon than planned. We hope this "we release a version then people donate" cycle will continue. If we don't put out new versions, then please do not feel obligated to donate, just use what you have and be happy you have it.

Peace

[carboniteaddon]

Originally Posted by Sepioth You haven't even done anything with the Voting system you implemented. I have yet to see ANYTHING come of it. I have not seen any voting results. I have not seen anything in the list even being talked about. Why donate for the ability to voice our opinions on where development leads too when we do not see any results?

Haavok made a post about the results some time ago.
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...d.php?p=138530

The item database is at the top of the new feature list, since it got the most votes, but the instance maps are being done first, simply because they are much less work to add and I have the time to get them done now for the next release. Patch 3.2 fixes are more important than either and have been getting attention.

[Faldiin]

Originally Posted by carboniteaddon Haavok made a post about the results some time ago.

And here is the problem. Sometime ago. That was 5/26/09. This was 2 months ago. I like your choice of words. This is why Users are frustrated. As far as issues with 3.2 This is a new issue in the last 2 weeks or so. What about the rest of that time?


Faldiin

[carboniteaddon]

Originally Posted by Faldiin What about the rest of that time?

Working on other projects. We said we were doing part time development. The feature is on the list, so in 1, 2 or 6 months, when we have time for it, it will get done.

When did you think it should be done and based on what information?

[Faldiin]

Well since this is part time. I think I understand. No I don't. You charge for this. We are still in the 9 month period of when we were paying. I understand having other things to do but over 2 months before anymore updates. So I am not sure what time frame you are running on but we paid for this. The only real update was when you removed the requirement for logging into the addon. But I can see I am talking to a wall. So no point in talking to myself.....


Faldiin

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by carboniteaddon Blah blah blah blah blah

You haven't heard a word anyone has been saying

People are already angry because you just up and disappeared, and you didn't come back until the angry mob began to get loud. Seriously, you cannot expect any other emotion from some of your supporters.

[carboniteaddon]

Originally Posted by Faldiin Well since this is part time. I think I understand. No I don't. You charge for this. We are still in the 9 month period of when we were paying. I understand having other things to do but over 2 months before anymore updates. So I am not sure what time frame you are running on but we paid for this.

A subscription let you
A. Use the addon.
B. Get any updates released during that time.

Where did it say your subscription bought you x number of updates or that we would release updates at a certain rate?

Originally Posted by Faldiin But I can see I am talking to a wall. So no point in talking to myself.....Faldiin

I can hear you. I just don't agree with you.

Originally Posted by Faldiin The only real update was when you removed the requirement for logging into the addon.

So these changes, since we removed the security are not real? If we just rolled back all there changes, you would not notice one difference? The addon would be a broken mess from patch 3.1 without many of the changes, just like when patch 3.2 arrives, it will break the current version in major and minor ways.


Changes: 3.13

Updated a few quests.

Added check on login of current quests to mark previous quests in their quest chain as complete.
Made checking a quest in the "Quest Completion..." menu also set previous quests in their chain as complete.
Changed color of "Quest Completion..." menu items from blue to green for a quest you have.
Made map "Quest Completion..." menu update as items are checked.
Changed map "Quest Info..." menu to "Quest Info (shift click - goto)...". Holding shift key makes a goto quest.

Added "Link Quest (shift right click)" to Watch List tracking button menu.
Disabled routing while on a taxi.
Added "Gather Icons At Scale" to map Scale menu.
Added "Item button scale (0 hides)" and "Item button transparency" to Quest Watch options page.
Added "Put objective counts before objective names" to Quest Watch options page.

Fixed error if bad player status message received.
Fixed group and heroic quest tags not found on German clients.

Changes: 3.12

Updated over 100 quests.
Added 2 first aid trainers to Guide.
Added 1138 herb and 1275 ore locations to CarboniteNodes.
Added remapping of titanium, rich saronite, gold and silver to their base ore type.
Added remapping of icethorn to lichbloom herb.
Added fadeout animation to nodes within 80 yards.

Added "Play target reached sound" setting to Tracking HUD options page.
Made docked minimap zoom a saved setting.
Changed "Show punk detections in Shattrath or Dalaran" option to "Show punk detections in safe areas".
Changed HUD arrow target button graphic to a solid circle.
Moved Watch List quest item buttons left and up. Made buttons 40% bigger and semi transparent.

Fixed taint errors in combat from setting Watch List item keybinding.
Fixed Watch List item error that could happen when turning in a quest.
Fixed disabled punk detections still showing in Dalaran Underbelly.
Fixed Wintergrasp zone graphic on French and Spanish clients.

Changes: 3.11

Added over 200 quests.
Added Argent Tournament Flight Master, Innkeeper and Mailbox.
Added Icecrown map overlay for Argent Tournament.

Change a few map default settings. A one time reset to map defaults will happen on login.
Defaults: Minimap Transparency .1, Details At Scale 2

Changed map background color to a mostly transparent black.
Changed when Alt key down to make minimap transparency 1 and force update.
Added "Minimap icon/dots scale" and "Minimap dock icon/dots scale" to Map Minimap options page.
Changed default map arrow size back to 32 and removed arrow shift.
Added map support for Dalaran Underbelly.

Changed Watch "Hide when in a raid group" to only do the hide/show when your "in raid" status changes.
Added alt left click of Carbonite minimap button to toggle the Watch List visibility.
Added mouse wheel support to menu sliders. Holding shift key moves x10.
Improved /carb winpos and winsize commands to accept any Carbonite window name. Case insensitive.
Added quest item buttons on Watch List.
Added "Use Top Quest Watch Item" key binding.
Remove hiding of Blizzard watch list.
Added "Modify game objective settings: Instant, no auto watch" to Quest Watch options page.
Added Northrend and Outland quest achievement info in Watch List for selected zone and in maximized map title.

Fixed minimap icons changing size as minimap scaled.
Fixed docked minimap icons being too small.
Fixed erratic speed display.
Fixed Northrend minimap detail graphics.
Fixed minimap zoom in/out key bindings not zooming Carbonite map.
Fixed stray Icecrown blimps in selected zone, when player in Icecrown.
Fixed minimap ping location.
Fixed Wintergrasp zone graphic on German client.
Fixed restore map scale happening when "Auto Scale" is off.
Fixed Warehouse info not showning in item tooltip if item has quest info.

Changes: 3.1

Changed interface versions so addons will not show as "Out of date".
Changed Watch List "Quest Giver Lower Levels To Show" default to 80.
Added info on using the Info Windows to the CarboniteReadMe.txt file.
Added Ulduar instance location.
Increased default map arrow size and slightly shifted the position.
Added Wintergrasp wait time to Info #4 defaults.
Added Nx.HUDGetTracking() for addons to get Carbonite TrackDir, TrackDistYd and TrackName.

Fixed error when enabling Show Auction Buyout Per Item.
Fixed error if quest objective type is wrong.
Fixed error comparing quest objectives if objective was missing.
Fixed Carbonite map arrow not following player facing in patch 3.1.
Fixed map error when a zone has battlefield vehicles in 3.1.
Fixed Blizzard watch list being shown in 3.1.
Fixed Naxxramas, Halls of Stone and Halls of Lightning instance locations.
Fixed map showing middle of ocean on login when not in BGs.

Changes: 3.001

Fixed lockups from old security code.

Changes: 3.00

Changed default to not have minimap put inside Carbonite map.
Added one time login message that asks to put minimap inside Carb map.
Added warning message if Cartographer 3 detected.
Replaced expiration with nag if version is old.

[carboniteaddon]

Originally Posted by Silenia You haven't heard a word anyone has been saying

I would not be making these posts, if I was not reading posts. I think you have not heard many of the words we have said. Disagreement does not mean misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by Silenia People are already angry because you just up and disappeared, and you didn't come back until the angry mob began to get loud. Seriously, you cannot expect any other emotion from some of your supporters.

We have said we we would be working on it part time. We said we had to work on other projects to pay the bills. We then go off and work on our other projects and you are surprised and/or mad? Exactly how much do you think we should be working on it? All the time is certainly the impression I get, but we don't have the time to give.

[Sepioth]

Originally Posted by carboniteaddon Haavok made a post about the results some time ago. http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...d.php?p=138530 The item database is at the top of the new feature list, since it got the most votes, but the instance maps are being done first, simply because they are much less work to add and I have the time to get them done now for the next release. Patch 3.2 fixes are more important than either and have been getting attention.

I know I said I was done. But this actually made me kinda laugh. (and now I have more to add based on some responses here)

WHAT is the point in voting when the TOP item is being put aside for another feature on the list??? Does that not COMPLETELY defeat the whole system? Why not just show a list of possible future updates. (Sorry I forgot that there was a voting result .. it's been a while since it was posted.) You said it your self time is limited so should it not be spent on what we voted for no matter how long it takes?? If you paid someone once a week to cut your grass and they trimmed your bushes you too would be a little upset

Now don't get me wrong I fully understand that Carbonite is no longer a cash cow and money needs to come from other places, but going over a month with no real updates (status or product) is not what I would consider part-time. I'm not expecting daily status updates or weekly product updates. What I AM EXPECTING is for you to poke in a little more often to say "HAY .. where still here .. This is what we are working on". I don't think this is too much to ask. Out of curiosity .. how much time is actually being spent working on Carbonite?? I sure hope it is around the 12-15 hour mark as that is what I would consider "part-time".


All I think we are looking for (at least I know it's what I'm looking for anyway) is some communication from you guys. Let us know what's up.

But for some reason I see the patch for 3.2 being the last major update.

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by carboniteaddon I would not be making these posts, if I was not reading posts. I think you have not heard many of the words we have said. Disagreement does not mean misunderstanding. We have said we we would be working on it part time. We said we had to work on other projects to pay the bills. We then go off and work on our other projects and you are surprised and/or mad? Exactly how much do you think we should be working on it? All the time is certainly the impression I get, but we don't have the time to give.

/facepalm ...


Sepioth you're wasting your breath. Apparently they don't see why disappearing without a word would get us upset.

[Faldiin]

Originally Posted by carboniteaddon We planned to just put Carbonite on life support for a year and see what happens. Since the donations were good, we decided to do more to the addon than planned.

No they don't get it. At least they were honest on their plans. Life support. Means no updates other then enough to keep it alive. So Why even listen to us.

As I said, Talking to a wall.

Faldiin

[carboniteaddon]

Originally Posted by Sepioth WHAT is the point in voting when the TOP item is being put aside for another feature on the list???

The point is, we know what people want, but #1 cannot be done now. A half done feature is useless and it is a big feature. #1 is also inflated because there is not a vote for nothing choice and it is the default.

Originally Posted by Sepioth If you paid someone once a week to cut your grass and they trimmed your bushes you too would be a little upset

More like you and 999 people have a giant lawn. 667 want it cut. 333 want the bushes done. The bushes take 10 hours to do. Grass 100. We decided to do the bushes first because we have 20 hours available to work this week and then we are building cabins for someone else for the next x weeks.

Originally Posted by Sepioth Now don't get me wrong I fully understand that Carbonite is no longer a cash cow and money needs to come from other places, but going over a month with no real updates (status or product) is not what I would consider part-time. I'm not expecting daily status updates or weekly product updates. What I AM EXPECTING is for you to poke in a little more often to say "HAY .. where still here .. This is what we are working on". I don't think this is too much to ask. Out of curiosity .. how much time is actually being spent working on Carbonite?? I sure hope it is around the 12-15 hour mark as that is what I would consider "part-time".

Never was a cash cow and donation revenue is only about 25% of previous sales revenue. Donations are just not that much. Frankly, I can make x10 the money per hour spent on other projects and those other projects keep growing. God is good. He keeps blessing me, even though I am an idiot. I spend the extra time on Carb that I do, not because I have to, but because I want to see Carbonite continue and people enjoying it. I don't even play WoW much these days, but when I do, I also want to be using Carbonite just like you do.

Carbonite is not being worked on on a x hours per week basis. It is block of time about once a month. May had a lot of dev+support time. June had no dev and some amount of support time. July has had about 25 hours dev+support time so far. When patch 3.2 is released probably in Aug, there will be a bunch of time spent fixing various things that I don't catch now.

That is how it is currently working. No, I will not be logging in to the forums every week that I am not working on Carbonite to say "Hey, did nothing this week. Bye". When I am working, I will be active in the forums. At other times I will try to hit the forums occasionally, but it is easy to forget, when other projects need lots of attention.

Haavok is in the same boat. He is working on another project and getting a lot more for his time spent, so me saying "work more on Carb, so we get more donations" does not fly.

[carboniteaddon]

Originally Posted by Faldiin No they don't get it. At least they were honest on their plans. Life support. Means no updates other then enough to keep it alive. So Why even listen to us.

Why did you comment on the first sentence and then ignore the second?

Life support was based on the assumption of no donations. The change list I previously posted clearly shows a lot of extra work above and beyond life support. The instance maps I am currently working on is not life support.

[Sepioth]

You keep beating around the bush and twisting what I say.

If time to work on Carbonite is EXTREMELY limited to a few hours a month then maybe it's time to accept help from the public. There are plenty of talented people here that will gladly help for free. If your projects and Real Life stuff takes up 24 hours a day then maybe getting the public to help in future development would be a smart idea. Start a team of people that can get access to versions they can help to test and developed. Or are you going to just let Carb die like Mazzle did?

AND I'll say it again as you seem to not hear what I said before. NO ONE is expecting an new version every week. If it ain't broke don't fix it. BUT we do expect some support. I constantly see questions of help here on the Carb forums. 99.9% of these are answered by myself and other WoWI users and not the Carb team. Forum support is just as good as product updates. I find it hard to believe that your new projects take up SO MUCH time that you can't find a few minutes here and there to answer your customers questions.

THAT is where the problem herein lies. Lack of support. And showing up once in a while to say "Hey, did nothing this week. Bye" would not be a BAD idea. It shows your still alive.

Well I'm done here. And your time is precious so I don't want to keep you from your other projects by having to respond to us idiot customers.

Bye