WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users - Page 69

Torhal · 05-20-09, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

Please let's not get into discussion of committing illegal activities, shall we?

We should probably also steer clear of the commission of discussing illegal activities.

/runhide

Estoppel · 05-21-09, 08:12 PM

So we have someone who insinuates that legal threats were made against him by WM. Someone who claims to have the source code to WM. Someone who has no qualms against committing copyright violation against WM, if only he had the means. Why would they ever post a response here? Posts about pirating their program are met with a joking response from the forum administrator.

***Cairenn*** · 05-21-09, 08:14 PM

Would you care to tell me how on earth you can read my response as "joking"?

voodoodad · 05-21-09, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

Please let's not get into discussion of committing illegal activities, shall we?

This is not Cairenn joking. This is Cairenn asking in a polite and professional manner for people to steer clear from a topic that could potentially get someone in trouble. How you could see this as being facetious is beyond me. Maybe I'm the one with no sense of humor, because I don't get the joke.

Yhor · 05-21-09, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Estoppel

So we have someone who insinuates that legal threats were made against him by WM. Someone who claims to have the source code to WM. Someone who has no qualms against committing copyright violation against WM, if only he had the means. Why would they ever post a response here? Posts about pirating their program are met with a joking response from the forum administrator.

All except your first point are things WowMatrix has done in normal business practices in the past (present? does WM still work?). So why should it even matter if they communicate here or not... they could use their own forums. Oh wait, they don't have forums.

As for you taking Cairenns's comment as a joke, just wow. At any rate, welcome.

Nuchaleft · 05-23-09, 12:20 PM

WM'ers make me lol

What's with all these 1 post wonders?

killer189 · 06-01-09, 12:19 AM

Yes Curse is sooo much better...yet they intentionally slow downloads and create it so you can only update one addon at a time. Oh thats right...so to entice you to BUY the premium...silly me. I forgot all of this was about the benjamins....

I'm tired of all the crap on here with people saying "Oh were doing it for the better of the gaming community". I'm finally speaking out and calling BS! If an author makes an addon to help the gaming community and is NOT in it for making a few bucks...then why should they care how its being distributed?

So please quit with all BS and just come out and say..."yes we want money for our addons...that is why we blocked WM".

Tekkub · 06-01-09, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by killer189

If an author makes an addon to help the gaming community and is NOT in it for making a few bucks...then why should they care how its being distributed?

Simply, because we have the right to.

More detailed... maybe we're okey with WoWI or Curse making a little money off our work because of the things they have done for us, both as authors and as players. WoWI and Curse have provided me with many MANY addons, for free. They also got me interested in writing addons, have provided places for great developer communities to grow and help each other out, and they host my addons... again for free.

For me, addons are a hobby, I don't care if I make money off them. But I like to share them, and I understand that someone has to pay for that bandwidth. I'm more than happy to let WoWI and Curse pull in some ad money from my addons because they've been good to me. What has WM done for me? Jack squat. Why should I let them make money of my addons?

Originally Posted by killer189

So please quit with all BS and just come out and say..."yes we want money for our addons...that is why we blocked WM".

Yes, we want money. No, we don't want it for our addons, we want it to pay for WoWI's bandwidth. We "came out" and said this on the first pages of this thread, and about every other page afterwards.

***Cairenn*** · 06-01-09, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by killer189

Rant

Curse --->

Bluspacecow · 06-01-09, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by killer189

If an author makes an addon to help the gaming community and is NOT in it for making a few bucks...then why should they care how its being distributed?

Well considering an addon is their copyrighted product and is such from the moment of creation .....

Yes they do care...

Would you as an addon author care if it was being distributed in an illegal and immoral manner ? Lets say if thugs were robbing people in the middle of the night and leaving a copy of YourAddonA on a disk behind with the victims ?

Possibly the best reasons why an Addon author cares about how it's being distributed is because of Support Issues. An author needs to know where a user has downloaded a particular version of an addon. The easiest way of doing this is limiting where a user downloads their addons from.

killer189 · 06-01-09, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by honem

Well considering an addon is their copyrighted product and is such from the moment of creation .....

Yes they do care...

Would you as an addon author care if it was being distributed in an illegal and immoral manner ? Lets say if thugs were robbing people in the middle of the night and leaving a copy of YourAddonA on a disk behind with the victims ?

Possibly the best reasons why an Addon author cares about how it's being distributed is because of Support Issues. An author needs to know where a user has downloaded a particular version of an addon. The easiest way of doing this is limiting where a user downloads their addons from.

Would I care if the addon was helping people enchance thier gaming exp? No. Once again..the only reason this whole thing came into question was someone was doing for free what curse is doing for money. You dont think it cost WM any money?

To be quite honest I could care less who manages the addons...whether it be curse, WM, or WI. I just can't stand the holier then though art bullcrap thats spewing about. Again one place was doing it for free...people that wanted to make some money didnt like it...so this whole situation came about. Instead of just coming out and saying that...people have to beat around the bush and make it sound like something else entirely. Neither WM or Curse are as bad as either make each out to be.

silentdabeast · 06-01-09, 09:14 AM

I was going to give Minion a chance, so i downloaded it and installed. I expected there to be some install problem (with me using Win 7RC1), but everything went fine.

However, I do NOT like shortcuts on my desktop, so I wish there was an option to either have a shortcut on the desktop OR add a start menu item. Now I have to manually do that - and no one likes messing with start menu items cause its a hassle.

But I was willing to put up with that if the interface itself looked/worked well.

This morning I updated qcomments through....another program (won't mention what because someone will get mad). I know its the correct version because some of the comments in WOW are VERY new. However, Minion says it's out of date, not to mention showing other addons that I know are current being out of date in minion.

Again that's a beta thing and I was expecting that.

What REALLY got me and turned me off of this program was the huge freaking flash add on the bottom right of the screen! This is unnecessary!

Why is it that you can't make any money without having these stupid flashing ads that are as big or bigger than other parts of the program? Your rival (you know who I'm talking about) has links - 5 of them - ALL pertaining to WOW...why do you have to show "summer sizzler" and "email marketing" and "LOTR" ads? If you think I'm lying about their program - download it and look at the links! There's 5, and they all pertain to WOW....NO gold spammers, NO garbage...just neat, clean, and simple. Why is it that you and Curse insist on having crap like this? You don't have to! If your rival doesn't have to - and if they are willing to host addons and do what ever it takes to help the author (now anyway), and they do NOT have to go crazy with ads and spam, then you can too!

Get together with "them" and partner up - you, Curse...all of you - WE are the users, not you! WE are what matter - do what's best for US! Most of us really don't care about WHERE we get our addons from - we just want quick, simple and reliable (and minimized ads and spam). This "minion" thing is just the same old thing that you and curse do - it's just an extension of your ad-junked up websites. Why should I stop using WM if this is all you can offer, huh? Why should anyone? Be BETTER than them, then I may consider it.

Keep in mind, there are a handful of people - wowui supporters - who will praise and worship your creations no matter what horse crap you produce. Shoot, you could make a program that is loaded with viruses and spam, and they'd still say "this is the best - this is awesome..." because they are that dull in the head! Yet I can read website after website of bloggers and news posts about how what you and curse are doing is worthless - that you should get together with WM and do the right thing. HUNDREDS of pages with HUNDREDS of posts...Why don't you listen to your customers and your clientele?

I'm not happy. I'm not the only one who is unhappy. I'm just outspoken enough and consistent enough to say ... I'm not happy! I will continue to wait to use my favorite addons and use what WM offers for now...until you can do better than WM does, I'm sorry - I will NOT let you make money off of me. If you don't know how WM does it, then ASK! And SCREW Curse, they're dead to me...at least you still have a leg to stand on.

silentdabeast · 06-01-09, 09:34 AM

By the way, i should have added to this...

This is the problem with our country. Everyone feels they're entitled to something. The Authors feel they're "entitled" to have their names on a free-to-public addon. The sites that distribute the addons believe their "entitled" to make a profit from them. The consumers feel "entitled" to get the addon in a way that makes them happy....

So who wins in the end? NOT the consumer, NOT the author...the winner is always those people who control it all - the corporations or the companies hosting and making a profit. And it's sad. It's so sad. Because no one - yes NO ONE is "entitled" to anything! We did not choose to be born, and we do not choose to die! Everything in between is a privilege, not an entitlement or a right. You do not have the right to make money off of authors who are willing to upload their addons to your site, any more than I have the right to use their addons, anymore than the authors have the right to say "look at me I wrote this". These are privileges! NOT RIGHTS! WM put you all to the test, and you failed it miserably. YOU are failures, all of you. You could have done the right thing, but instead you chose to be selfish, dishonest, deceptive to your customers, and deceptive to those who freely give you addons so that you can make money off of them. SHAME ON YOU! Just like you don't have entitlement or the right to make a profit from this, you also are not entitled to deceive. You are no better than Nancy Pelosi, or any of our "fine politicians" in Washington. Inasmuch as you complain about them, you should be complaining about yourself, because you are NO BETTER!

Vyper · 06-01-09, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by killer189

Would I care if the addon was helping people enchance thier gaming exp? No. Once again..the only reason this whole thing came into question was someone was doing for free what curse is doing for money. You dont think it cost WM any money?

To be quite honest I could care less who manages the addons...whether it be curse, WM, or WI. I just can't stand the holier then though art bullcrap thats spewing about. Again one place was doing it for free...people that wanted to make some money didnt like it...so this whole situation came about. Instead of just coming out and saying that...people have to beat around the bush and make it sound like something else entirely. Neither WM or Curse are as bad as either make each out to be.

If WM was doing it free, so are WoWI and Curse, all of the above provide addons for free, all of the above provide updaters... free, all of the above are ad-based in their revenue streams.
The difference is WoWI and Curse both provide author tools, both require that the author submit their addons for distribution, rather than leeching from other sites or stealing them outright.

Yhor · 06-01-09, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by silentdabeast

<snip>

What REALLY got me and turned me off of this program was the huge freaking flash add on the bottom right of the screen! This is unnecessary!

Why is it that you can't make any money without having these stupid flashing ads that are as big or bigger than other parts of the program? Your rival (you know who I'm talking about) has links - 5 of them - ALL pertaining to WOW...why do you have to show "summer sizzler" and "email marketing" and "LOTR" ads? If you think I'm lying about their program - download it and look at the links! There's 5, and they all pertain to WOW....NO gold spammers, NO garbage...just neat, clean, and simple. Why is it that you and Curse insist on having crap like this? You don't have to! If your rival doesn't have to - and if they are willing to host addons and do what ever it takes to help the author (now anyway), and they do NOT have to go crazy with ads and spam, then you can too!

Does WM provide forums, author tools, resources? Do they care enough to listen and respond to their users? Do they communicate anything at all, that isn't a factless FAQ? These things cost money, you know, that currency that does not grow on trees.

Get together with "them" and partner up - you, Curse...all of you - WE are the users, not you! WE are what matter - do what's best for US! Most of us really don't care about WHERE we get our addons from - we just want quick, simple and reliable (and minimized ads and spam). This "minion" thing is just the same old thing that you and curse do - it's just an extension of your ad-junked up websites. Why should I stop using WM if this is all you can offer, huh? Why should anyone? Be BETTER than them, then I may consider it.

They won't get together with WoWI or Curse, something you are either ignoring intentionally, or have not had the inclination to learn from the posts and documents that have already been sourced.

As for "WE ARE WHAT MATTERS"... authors -generally- make addons for themselves, their guild, or a friend. They CHOOSE whether or not to share, and WHERE they choose to share, this site, and Curse, do not blatantly snatch these addons and redistribute without author's knowlege AND consent, WM does.

Keep in mind, there are a handful of people - wowui supporters - who will praise and worship your creations no matter what horse crap you produce. Shoot, you could make a program that is loaded with viruses and spam, and they'd still say "this is the best - this is awesome..." because they are that dull in the head! Yet I can read website after website of bloggers and news posts about how what you and curse are doing is worthless - that you should get together with WM and do the right thing. HUNDREDS of pages with HUNDREDS of posts...Why don't you listen to your customers and your clientele?

Bloggers? Okay, bloggers are awesome, maybe they can present the authors here a better place for resources and tools for free? You think the authors will go flocking to bloggers? You think the word of bloggers makes a difference to an addon author or an addon host website? Why?

When did you become a customer? I wasn't aware WoWI or addon authors were selling anything. If they were selling anything, some of your points might be valid, but as it is, they must do what they can to stay afloat... without selling anything (except ad space... oh wait, you're an advertiser?).

I'm not happy. I'm not the only one who is unhappy. I'm just outspoken enough and consistent enough to say ... I'm not happy! I will continue to wait to use my favorite addons and use what WM offers for now...until you can do better than WM does, I'm sorry - I will NOT let you make money off of me. If you don't know how WM does it, then ASK! And SCREW Curse, they're dead to me...at least you still have a leg to stand on.

Good for you! At least you have principles (oh wait, really?).

Tekkub · 06-01-09, 12:08 PM

I think you should look again at WM, they were the ones who were dishonest and deceptive. Authors did not give them addons to make money off of, and they made that money by ofloading the expense (bandwidth) onto other sites. While you're at it, you need to find out what rights you and authors do and don't have, because you've got it all ass-backwards.

***Cairenn*** · 06-01-09, 12:48 PM

You missed my point the first time, so I'll be more direct this time:

If you have a problem with the way Curse is doing things, please discuss it on the Curse site, which is that way --->

killer189 · 06-01-09, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Vyper

If WM was doing it free, so are WoWI and Curse, all of the above provide addons for free, all of the above provide updaters... free, all of the above are ad-based in their revenue streams.
The difference is WoWI and Curse both provide author tools, both require that the author submit their addons for distribution, rather than leeching from other sites or stealing them outright.

WM was free entirely...Curse is free to a point...and doesnt intentionally slow peoples downloads down so they can entice them to buy premium. I just love how WoW says "There will be no selling of addons..period"...ok lets go around that and make the downloads slower so we can get the money another way.

By the way...if they're free as you say....then how is it stealing or leeching...they are just taking and resdistributing..for free. The only money coming in is from the same ads you guys run to keep your site running. The SAME thing. They arnt profiting or asking anyone for money. Just distributing the mods that are...as you say...free anyway...for...gasp...free!

Vyper · 06-01-09, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by killer189

WM was free entirely...Curse is free to a point...and doesnt intentionally slow peoples downloads down so they can entice them to buy premium. I just love how WoW says "There will be no selling of addons..period"...ok lets go around that and make the downloads slower so we can get the money another way.

This site isn't Curse... move on if you have a problem with them.

Originally Posted by killer189

By the way...if they're free as you say....then how is it stealing or leeching...they are just taking and resdistributing..for free. The only money coming in is from the same ads you guys run to keep your site running. The SAME thing. They arnt profiting or asking anyone for money. Just distributing the mods that are...as you say...free anyway...for...gasp...free!

"Free" does not mean you can take it and do anything you want with it. Just because I give you an addon for free does not mean you have the right to redistribute it.
Its copyright 101: Unless I have specifically given you the distribution rights to my code, or have released it under a free-distribution license, you do not have the right to redistribute my work regardless of whether or not I choose to distribute it for free.
As for why authors would not want to have multiple sources distributing their work, it has been covered several times in this discussion, so I won't cover it again.

MidgetMage55 · 06-01-09, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by killer189

WM was free entirely...Curse is free to a point...and doesnt intentionally slow peoples downloads down so they can entice them to buy premium. I just love how WoW says "There will be no selling of addons..period"...ok lets go around that and make the downloads slower so we can get the money another way.

By the way...if they're free as you say....then how is it stealing or leeching...they are just taking and resdistributing..for free. The only money coming in is from the same ads you guys run to keep your site running. The SAME thing. They arnt profiting or asking anyone for money. Just distributing the mods that are...as you say...free anyway...for...gasp...free!

Up until recently they were using the bandwidth of various sites to get their addons. They did this without ever asking permission and they did not talk to this site at least about paying for bandwidth or any such thing. Simply they incurred costs while making money off their own ads while violating author copyright. This would be where the stealing was occurring. They do not have the right to take any addon they choose and redistribute it nor do they have the right to scrape a site for them if the site in question does not wish it.

As for redistribution WM is currently using addons that are under GPL style licenses (there are other types that allow for free redistribution but i forget the names) and it is their right to do so. This is only very recent however.

Not all addons are free to redistribute. They are however free of CHARGES and must be as put forth by blizzard. Copyright and control of HOW an addon is distributed is still within the control of the author. Nowhere in blizzards statement does it say that authors are required to allow each and every site or service that wants to host their addons to do so.

Taken directly from here (emphasis mine)

1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.

In short you cant sell your addons or charge for premium version or updates. If your going to allow it to be used at all it must be free of charges.

So currently WM is hosting free to redistribute addons. In the recent past however this was far from the case. They have gone out of their way not so long ago to circumvent protection put in place to prevent them from leeching off the site.

As for curse throttling download speeds. To my knowledge (someone in the know please correct me if im wrong) they only do this on the updater. Your still able to get them manually at full speeds.

As Cairren has said however if you have any particular issues with how Curse does their business you should address them directly.