Quantcast Religion and modern society. - Page 4 - WoWInterface
View Poll Results: Does a modern society need religion.
Yes, yes it does 21 28.38%
No, no it doesn't 53 71.62%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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10-27-10, 04:25 PM   #61
Vlad
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"religion helped shape our world" indeed, not to mention all that has happened in the name of a god -dark ages, inquisition and many other similar events. it's all business and interests in the long run :P imo, ofc there are several sides to every situation.
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10-27-10, 04:29 PM   #62
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I suspect societies will always have things filling the various social roles filled by religions, some of which I'd much rather weren't filled. I'm personally pretty religious, but I'm not a big fan of institutionalized religions -- institutions end up being about their own survival and advancement, which is not usually good for the rest of us.
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10-27-10, 05:07 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
<snip>Not all that surprising really since a lot of people in this thread are only seeing what they want to see, and not what people are actually saying.
Isn't this inherently the very nature of religion in the first place?

What is the bible (or the Qur'an or whatever) but little more than a game of telephone played over hundreds or thousands of years by people of differing perspectives and motivations? Ever heard two (or more) people describe an event they both witnessed in nearly completely different terms?
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10-27-10, 07:05 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
You totally and completely missed the entire point. Not all that surprising really since a lot of people in this thread are only seeing what they want to see, and not what people are actually saying.
Alright, I'll try again to see your point, and how it relates to religion in society.

Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
The Christian God requires;
blood sacrifice, subjugation of women, annihilation of cities, slaughter of the multitudes, unquestioned obedience, murder of his own son, destruction by flood, and as a grand finale, He plans to destroy the world by fire!

And people wonder why I'm Pagan.
I read a long sentence of atrocities attributed to Christianity, implying Christianity is detrimental to society, and then an offhand remark implying Paganism is a superior alternative. If what you're trying to say isn't Christianity = Bad, Paganism = Not bad, then you must have left out a few sentences.
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10-28-10, 07:01 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by sevti View Post
Alright, I'll try again to see your point, and how it relates to religion in society.



I read a long sentence of atrocities attributed to Christianity, implying Christianity is detrimental to society, and then an offhand remark implying Paganism is a superior alternative. If what you're trying to say isn't Christianity = Bad, Paganism = Not bad, then you must have left out a few sentences.
Implied? Seriously? Out of that long sentence, tell me the bits that are not detrimental to society.

I did not say "people wonder why there are Pagans". I said "people wonder why I am Pagan". I speak for me, not any other Pagans because their path may not be the same as mine. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee it's not. For me, Paganism is a better alternative than living in fear.
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10-28-10, 08:07 AM   #66
sevti
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Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
Implied? Seriously? Out of that long sentence, tell me the bits that are not detrimental to society.

I did not say "people wonder why there are Pagans". I said "people wonder why I am Pagan". I speak for me, not any other Pagans because their path may not be the same as mine. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee it's not. For me, Paganism is a better alternative than living in fear.
Ok, but you're still picking on Christianity rather than discussing religion as a whole, and society as a whole. Whether it deserves it or not, this conversation wasn't designed to bash Christianity (supposedly). That's all I'm saying.

edit: To be thorough: I said "implied" because you listed examples, and did not directly state that you were relating them to the broader topic of "religion in society." It may be an obvious implication, but it's just semantics, not intended to offend.

I will revise my previous stance that it sounded like "My religion is better." It sounds like "Christianity is terrible." Both statements are pretty full of bias, and unrelated to general religion on society, so I stand by my former analysis as to its contribution to statements regarding objectivity.

Last edited by sevti : 10-28-10 at 08:20 AM.
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10-28-10, 08:14 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by sevti View Post
Ok, but you're still picking on Christianity rather than discussing religion as a whole, and society as a whole. Whether it deserves it or not, this conversation wasn't designed to bash Christianity (supposedly). That's all I'm saying.

Christianity is the largest religion in the United States, so that is the religion I addressed. I stated why I think it's not meant for modern society. Living in fear is no way to live.

Edit: my original statement comes from a t-shirt that I proudly wear.
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Last edited by Petrah : 10-28-10 at 08:16 AM.
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10-28-10, 08:42 AM   #68
sevti
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Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
Christianity is the largest religion in the United States, so that is the religion I addressed. I stated why I think it's not meant for modern society. Living in fear is no way to live.

Edit: my original statement comes from a t-shirt that I proudly wear.
Power to you for wearing the shirt, I suppose. I couldn't wear something so full of negativity.

Knowing what I know now, I can see where your statement came from. Your initial post was limited; on a forum, you can only expect people to read exactly what you write.

I still think pointing out a specific religion was the wrong way to go, particularly without acknowledgment/rebuttal of its good points, but I understand now why you did.
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10-28-10, 08:50 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by sevti View Post
Power to you for wearing the shirt, I suppose. I couldn't wear something so full of negativity.

Knowing what I know now, I can see where your statement came from. Your initial post was limited; on a forum, you can only expect people to read exactly what you write.

I still think pointing out a specific religion was the wrong way to go, particularly without acknowledgment/rebuttal of its good points, but I understand now why you did.

Fair enough.
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10-28-10, 09:32 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by haylie View Post
So you're basically saying that it's not logical to believe in God, because essentially there is no reason people should believe in a God since we have no proof that he exists.

See, I have a rather strange take on religion. I consider myself an orthodox, but that's only because I was born in an orthodox family. Now, over the years, I've developed this ability to listen to all the things being thrown at me from religion, science, school, other people, etc. and decide for myself whether it is BS or not, whether it is satisfying or not.

Now, science has told me HOW the universe was created, how life appeared on earth, how the laws of physics function, etc. What it never taught me and never will is WHY. Why was the universe created? Why did we evolve in this way and not another? (dolphin humanoids would have been so cool ) Why are the laws of physics the way they are?

I found the answer to that in religion, or philosophy if you will. I believe there is a higher force out there that decided all these things, be it God, aliens, some mysterious force of the Universe that makes things be the way there are. I believe humans are here to search for that supreme being or concept.

See, for me, science and common sense cannot explain EVERYTHING I need to know about the world I live in. I need religion for my understanding of the world to be complete.
The problem with your argument is that you've taken as a forgone conclusion the notion that the universe and the stuff it contains must have a purpose. There's no real basis to assume that our existence has any prearranged purpose other than the fact that it makes us "feel better" (and I shouldn't have to point out that feeling is not a valid substitute for truth).

There is a philosophical notion called the Anthropic Principle which answers the question, "why are we here?" by simply replying "because we are." Basically, the universe is the way it is because otherwise we would not be here to observe it. This is not to say that the universe was designed specifically to produce and contain us. It simply means that, even though it may be extremely unlikely that the universe should have the correct physical properties to produce intelligent life, the unlikely events must have happened because it produced us. It may be that billions of universe have existed before ours, each of them going unremarked because they never produced beings capable of observing and questioning the nature of reality. When considering how staggeringly unlikely our existence is, people rarely take into consideration the possibility of failed attempts.

If you think it is unlikely that the universe came to be the way it is by sheer dumb luck, you would probably be right. If you think it is more likely that the universe was created in an orderly fashion by a being (or race of beings) of exceptional intelligence and ability, whose existence is even less likely because it requires additional complexity, I would ask that you kindly recheck your premises.

Originally Posted by haylie View Post
Now how does that prove your post wrong? Well, I for one found a reason to believe in God. Maybe different people have different reasons for believing in what they believe, empirical or not. You cannot judge a person's feelings and beliefs based solely on empirical evidence. You need empirical evidence to state a fact, not an opinion.
Exactly what exempts beliefs and opinions from requiring evidence? What makes them so special that they require no basis in reality?

I believe that President Obama is actually a lizard-man from Uranus come to spread his lizard-man genes on Earth in order to dilute the human gene pool in preparation for his lizard-people's impending invasion. Should this belief be exempt from empirical evidence?

I believe that human intelligence originates from alien souls implanted in our bodies after their cryogenically frozen bodies were flown to Earth on DC10 space planes, dumped on the rims of active volcanos, and destroyed with nuclear weapons on the order of the Galactic Emperor Xenu whose reign of terror has lasted for 75 billion years. Should this belief be exempt from empirical evidence?

I believe than an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being created the universe in its present state 6500 years ago over the span of six days in an order than defies the laws of physics and a geological record, and that roughly 2000 years ago he impregnated a young girl without breaking her hymen. She then gave birth to that being's son, who was also him, and 33 years later he was executed for blasphemy before coming back from the dead and ascending physically to a place outside of physical space to rejoin his father who is also him. Should this belief be exempt from empirical evidence?
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10-28-10, 11:09 AM   #71
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Just because you can construct a question beginning with the word why does not mean it has to be answered.

It's a bit presumptuous to think that the universe was created for us and us alone in my opinion.
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10-28-10, 01:09 PM   #72
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Hey, if it kept people from stealing from each other, I'm cool.

Like I said, religion is a form of crowd control. Good or bad. Unfortunately democracy hadn't been around at the time, so the "government" had to use other means of subduing the masses, like oppression. Good or bad, it worked didn't it?
It didn't keep people from stealing. It didn't keep people from murdering. Religion tries to scare you, for some people it might work, but in general it doesn't.

So no, it didn't work. And even if it did, that doesn't justify it just because "it worked".

Learn to spot the difference between what religion actually tells you and what things other people do "in the name of religion".
Do you have any idea what religion actually tells you. I don't know much about any holy book, but most of them really aren't about peace for everyone. It's about peace for the believers, **** the rest. Imo it's easy to say that god is actually perfect and that he has a perfect plan, yet the ones following him abuse it. And that for thousands of years.

Uh, no. The fact that we're both from the same state does not mean we're a community. The fact that I walk past people on the street does not make them part of my community. The state doesn't tell me to go out and make friends. To be nice to people beyond what their human rights require. These things I had to learn on my own, from different persons and entities, yes, one of them being religion.
No we're not a community in a personal way. However we live by the same rules because of our government. We pay taxes to the same government. We're in the same education system. Our economy is the same etc. Every individual is part of the state, thus from the same community. Ofcourse everyone has different PERSONAL communities to go along with it.

There's a difference between moral as basic human rights (life, private property, etc) and moral as stuff that influence your everyday decisions.
And what are the differences then? Our human rights came out of our morale. Just like most things we do.

Intelligence makes morality, but what about non-intelligent people that can't go to school. Like, for example in underdeveloped countries? Who's gonna teach them and their parents what's moral and not?
Will it be religion? Education doesn't need to be based around religion. And they're not non-intelligent, they're less-intelligent due to circumstances.
I agree we should teach them morals and values, but that has nothing to do with religion.

Religions adapt yes, tho not much. The state however can soften some parts of the religion tho. But the religion at core doesn't change. I wonder why with so many for example, medical technology, the church never agrees.

Which brings me back to my first post and that thing I posted about religion filling a void in society that is not filled by other means such as education, the state, etc.
Again, which void are you speaking off?

Of course you can. I can choose the Buddhist moral tomorrow if I wanted to. Who's gonna stop me?
And why would you change religion, or why would you stop eating meat or why would by a hybrid vehicle? because you gained knowledge and noticed that the way you were living doesn't follow your morale. Thus you change what you do. Or you try to sooth yourself trying to fool your morale with excuses. Thigns constantly happen which change the way you think and act.

You seem to forget that not everyone on the planet lives in a democratic society, has access to medical and social care and to higher education. Yes, in some parts of the planet, religion is the ONLY thing that keeps people relatively organized in a society.
Yes and instead of trying to give them morality with religion for example we could perhaps bring them serious education, work, homes, medicines, ..

They need help, not religion. Religion might satisfy them, but in the long term it won't help.

I didn't say it gave MY life a meaning, or yours. It gave life a meaning for SOME people.
No you said religion gave life a meaning. That's a big difference with giving someones life meaning.

Also, make no mistake, I'm talking about modern day religion here. The one that doesn't kill you if you didn't obey. You know, as a form of crowd control.
The religion is the same, the people using it are more modern.

Now, science has told me HOW the universe was created, how life appeared on earth, how the laws of physics function, etc. What it never taught me and never will is WHY.
Would reply to this too but I just agree with a few posts above. Get over the thought that life (in our universe) has a meaning, or that it should have a meaning. Nor the thought that we have to know everything that's going around. We just can't, and that's fine.

I'm personally pretty religious, but I'm not a big fan of institutionalized religions
This is pretty much what I think too. I really don't care if people are religious. But the institution behind is what I dislike.
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10-29-10, 07:09 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
The Christian God requires;
blood sacrifice, subjugation of women, annihilation of cities, slaughter of the multitudes, unquestioned obedience, murder of his own son, destruction by flood, and as a grand finale, He plans to destroy the world by fire!

And people wonder why I'm Pagan.
Not to bash you, but you say "And people wonder why I'm Pagan".. What you just said, is why I get screamed at for being Pagan....

Just let everyone believe in what they want, if they want to believe... If it makes em happy, it's all good. Just don't force a choice upon another being, that's all.
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10-30-10, 02:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by MoonWitch View Post
Not to bash you, but you say "And people wonder why I'm Pagan".. What you just said, is why I get screamed at for being Pagan....
Definitely not a bash.. towards me anyway. No one has ever screamed at me for my beliefs.

If people didn't want to hear what people think or how they feel about religion, then the topic should of been locked or never created to begin with. It's just plain silly to think that anyone can stay on topic when the topic is religion. No one's going to like what they read here, but unfortunately it is what it is and people believe in what they believe in for a reason.
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10-30-10, 07:26 PM   #75
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Just pointing out that we are watching this thread very closely.
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10-30-10, 08:19 PM   #76
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It's not that I mind religion as a topic, but usually it ends in a flaming contest.

In the spirit of the topic : To all that celebrate Samhain ... Have a blessed celebration

MP and MMA (little in between greeting)
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10-31-10, 04:51 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Led ++ View Post
- snip -
You know, I'm quite done with trying to make you see beyond your personal beliefs in religion (or should I say, Christianity). You just don't WANT to believe that for some people religion IS more important than anything in life, even in modern societies. Yes, I do agree that with time religion will be less and less a part of people's lives as more people have access to school, health care, higher education, etc. But until then, religion is very deeply rooted into society, and taking it away forcibly is just all kinds of wrong (would YOU live in a society that bans all forms of religion? Isn't that really the opposite of democracy?)

So no, I don't believe in today's society you can just ban all religion and be done with. Maybe you could, if people like you Led would be the only ones existing. But that's not the case. Even if you did manage to ban it, religious people would just create their own society.

I do think that one day religion as we know it would no longer be part of our lives. But I also believe some people would still feel the need for religion in their lives in one form or another and will simply invent new religions or evolve existing ones to coincide with modern ideas and philosophies (truth is, Christianity today is pretty out of date). The way I see it, religion is here to stay.

Originally Posted by Danin View Post
- snip -
So, we're here because we're here? Just a series of random coincidences that created us? I'm sorry, but I just can't be satisfied with that answer. Also, in your entire tirade I have failed to see any kind of actual scientific proof, other than likely/unlikely, which makes it only an opinion/belief. You also think it would be too complicated to have a supreme being around, but how is that more complicated than multiple universes/realities? You're just trying to pass on your beliefs as facts.


Exactly what exempts beliefs and opinions from requiring evidence? What makes them so special that they require no basis in reality?
Belief =/= knowledge. While knowledge must be justified with proof to be true, belief doesn't. If you have enough evidence to prove a belief is true, it becomes knowledge. A belief is just that, a belief. You can try to prove it if you want, or you can leave it at the belief state. You can believe whatever crazy stuff you want, we live in a free society and no one's stopping you. It's when you try to pass on your belief as knowledge that you need to provide proof.

I never tried to pass on my belief as knowledge. It's what I personally believe, and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary aside from "it's highly unlikely", which does not make it impossible. I never said what I believe is the universal truth. If you're happy in believing we're just a string of coincidences, more power to you. But don't try to impose your beliefs on me.
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11-01-10, 04:49 PM   #78
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You know, I'm quite done with trying to make you see beyond your personal beliefs in religion (or should I say, Christianity). You just don't WANT to believe that for some people religion IS more important than anything in life, even in modern societies.
Actually I said quite a few times that I really don't care if someone is religious or not. Do I think they are right, no? But this thread still as nothing to little to do with personal belief. And I said countless of times that it isn't against a specific religion. If it leans more towards christianity then that is purely a coincidence. Since it's the main religion in our country I just happen to know more about it then any other religion.

Yes, I do agree that with time religion will be less and less a part of people's lives as more people have access to school, health care, higher education, etc.
So basically you agree with me.

taking it away forcibly is just all kinds of wrong (would YOU live in a society that bans all forms of religion? Isn't that really the opposite of democracy?)
Again, where did I state that I want to forcibly take it away? -.-* I wasn't even speaking realistically, I was merely pondering if it would be better or not. And I believe we would be yes.

So, we're here because we're here? Just a series of random coincidences that created us? I'm sorry, but I just can't be satisfied with that answer.
Ah the important view of mankind. We are here so we must be important for some god knows what reason! We are like 1/32503570073505235702757735 (rando mass number, it's certainly more) of this universe. Nothing indicates that we have some sort of importance in the big scheme of events. Why do you have the need to be important? What's wrong with being here due to curcumstances of what happened to our planet in it's early years. Not to mention life has been here for Millions of years, humans just for thousands. The human race itself is just a ridiculous tiny part of our history.

Also, in your entire tirade I have failed to see any kind of actual scientific proof, other than likely/unlikely, which makes it only an opinion/belief.
So it's wrong to base an opinion on the likeliness of something? I'll link you forward to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd_hHCWlldo (the good part starts around the middle)

To tired now, off to bed.
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11-02-10, 07:18 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Led ++ View Post
Actually I said quite a few times that I really don't care if someone is religious or not. Do I think they are right, no? But this thread still as nothing to little to do with personal belief. And I said countless of times that it isn't against a specific religion. If it leans more towards christianity then that is purely a coincidence. Since it's the main religion in our country I just happen to know more about it then any other religion.
Yet time and time again you have attempted to prove my arguments wrong by stating what YOU believe, by giving your opinions or examples from your own life. And if it has nothing to do with what you believe in, why do you say that taking the context out of religion is wrong?

I gave you an answer which I think has nothing to do with my own religious belief, or with any specific religion for that matter. If the state or whatever organ is at the head of a society doesn't provide what the individual and by extension the society as a whole need to function properly (government, justice, moral code, philosophy, meaning of life, science, whatever), then often times it is religion that steps in to assume that role. It was true in the past and it is true in some places even today. So there is no right or wrong answer. It just depends on what "modern society" you're talking about.

So basically you agree with me.
Not really. You took my quote out of context. Later on I went on and explained how there will always be religious people in a society, and with time the concept of religion itself will change from what we know today, either in the form of new religions or evolved old religions.


Again, where did I state that I want to forcibly take it away? -.-* I wasn't even speaking realistically, I was merely pondering if it would be better or not. And I believe we would be yes.
I specifically remember you explaining that a more appropriate question would be "If you had to build a new society from the ground up, what place would religion have/would you include religion at all?". Well the answer to that is quite obvious. Assuming I'm building a democratic society where all citizens are treated equally, religion would be one of the first things I would take care of, ensuring that everyone is free to practice their own religion and they have the facilities needed to do so (churches, mosquees (pretty sure I misspelled that), optional religion classes in schools, etc.) I believe that is the statement of true democracy and modern thinking, not telling everyone "okay, we know God didn't create the world, you're all stupid for believing it so I'm not gonna support the citizens that want to practice religion in this society". How is that "modern" in any way?


Ah the important view of mankind. We are here so we must be important for some god knows what reason! We are like 1/32503570073505235702757735 (rando mass number, it's certainly more) of this universe. Nothing indicates that we have some sort of importance in the big scheme of events. Why do you have the need to be important? What's wrong with being here due to curcumstances of what happened to our planet in it's early years. Not to mention life has been here for Millions of years, humans just for thousands. The human race itself is just a ridiculous tiny part of our history.
Opinion. Also, I don't believe the universe was created just for us, nor did I say that. I'm actually quite convinced that there are plenty of alien life forms out there along with tons of other stuff we couldn't even imagine. I just think we're here for a reason, along with everything else in the universe. Even if that reason is as lame as serve as food for a species of carnivorous space monkeys some day.

Humans are actually quite a stupid species if I may offer my unwanted and biased opinion. I don't give our species that much credit. I'm still hoping there's someone smarter out there that will one day beat some sense into us.


So it's wrong to base an opinion on the likeliness of something? I'll link you forward to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd_hHCWlldo (the good part starts around the middle)
Ugh, you completely and totally misunderstood what I said. You can base AN OPINION on ANYTHING YOU WANT, be it science, personal belief or as a result of severe brain damage. The important bit is when you want to TURN THE OPINION into a FACT, for which you need PROOF.

Get it now?

Last edited by haylie : 11-02-10 at 07:28 AM.
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11-02-10, 08:02 AM   #80
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haylie, facts don't exist by default. You can only state rules that make something a fact or an opinion. What are yours?

P.S.: I'm not stating with this post in any way that I agree with anyone in this thread, please don't say that I do.

EDIT: To give my opinion on this thread, in my definition religion is what you believe to be true. If you believe 1 + 1 = 2 to be true than that is part of your religion. No man can live without religion.

To answer the question "Does a modern society need a mainstream religion (like christianity, islam, etc)?" my answer is no.

To finally answer the question "Does ANY society need a mainstream religion (like christianity, islam, etc)?" my answer is still no.

Just like "language is what language does", in my opinion for religion goes the same.

Religion is what religion does.
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