WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Cairenn /grabs herself by the scruff of the neck and tells herself to calm down again /grabs everyone else by the scruff of the neck and tells them to all calm down again, too

Just in case anyone thinks my tone is angry or aggressive, it's not. The whole thing is starting to border on funny to me in some ways. It's an amazing exercise in belief systems, I know that much.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX Just because you decided to spend your free time making an add-on that some people find indispensable does not entitle you to charge them or anyone else for it.

Why not... McDonald's thinks they're entitled to charge people for hamburgers because some people think they're indispensable.

Why are you entitled to my money for something you chose to create, spend time and effort on and then share for free?

I'm not. You have the option of not paying for it. Why are you entitled to use something I chose to create, spend my time and effort on, for free?

[Sepioth]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX Because add-ons have never been nor will be, in the future obviously, a pay-to-use feature of World of Warcraft unless Blizzard decides to open a department specifically tailored to add-on authoring themselves. Just because you decided to spend your free time making an add-on that some people find indispensable does not entitle you to charge them or anyone else for it. Why are you entitled to my money for something you chose to create, spend time and effort on and then share for free?

Your barking up the wrong tree here .. this has been argued in the past in many a now closed threads.

Anyway I'm off to bed .. can't wait to see all the new posts tommorow ..

Night all .. you too spiel .. no hard feelings I hope

EDIT : Also I take back the statement about not supporting your supporters .. Good to see you are going to try, although on a very slippery slope

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Sepioth Your barking up the wrong tree here .. this has been argued in the past in many a now closed threads. Anyway I'm off to bed .. can't wait to see all the new posts tommorow .. Night all .. you too spiel .. no hard feelings I hope

It's kinda pointless anyway. Copyright gives the author the right to charge for his work. Plain and simple. It's not a matter of entitlement, it's a matter of the artist's rights with respect to how his work is copied and distributed.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX Because you gave it away for free? lol You uploaded your add-on here knowing this was a free author portal to get your add-on out there so you could charge for it? That's a pretty underhanded way to use such a wonderful and FREE service.

Like it or not, his copyright gives him the right to do EXACTLY that. The issue here is not a question of if he has the right to charge for his work, it's if Blizzard has the right to ban his work if he charges for it.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX I'm just confused as to why add-on authors feel entitled to charge people for something they decided to share for free in the beginning. Because it became popular? Whos fault is that, if you didn't want to spend the time offering support or answering emails, why did you bother to share it in the first place? Not everyone is a master add-on user.

I have a couple of answers to that.

1) I have not REDUCED what is nUI... there is WAY more available in nUI for free than there was when I first released it by miles. I never took anything out of nUI to create a lite version, I ADDED to it to make a pro version. So, to take your argument on its face, I haven't decided to charge for something I decided to give away for free in the beginning.

2) I have treated my development of nUI as a business since the day I wrote the first line of code. Before that even, when I was planning what I wanted to do it was a business. I didn't "change my mind" mid-stream... I saw a real market with over 10 million people in it, I saw a need and I filled it. That's called an entrepreneurial enterprise. Does that make me evil?

3) I'm equally confused why add-on users feel entitled to use the addons someone else wrote for free. I'm equally confused why they can't be bothered to read a FAQ, the documentation that's included with the mod or the post four posts down in the forum, but will wirte the mod author to say "I'm too lazy to look this up... how do I change the size of my action buttons" and then turn around and say the author has no right to ask for a donation for their time and trouble.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX Because you gave it away for free? lol You uploaded your add-on here knowing this was a free author portal to get your add-on out there so you could charge for it? That's a pretty underhanded way to use such a wonderful and FREE service.

Umm... okay... go tell Adobe that free trials are immoral... http://www.adobe.com/products/creati...duction/trial/ -- or how about telling Bliz that it is wrong to let users download a program they will have to pay for later... https://signup.worldofwarcraft.com/t...11243.app25_01

McDonald's charges for a convenience and a product, not time and effort.

Okay... so McDonalds can charge for their product, a lawyer however may not charge for time and effort?

They didn't one day sit down and think 'Hey, I just decided to make some hamburgers today let's give some away for free to get people hooked and then start charging them for an even better hamburger in a couple of months when we get really popular.'

Ever walk through a grocery store and see a clerk giving out free samples of a new product? Every get a free sample of something in your mailbox?

It has been a paid-for service from day one, add-on authoring has not.

Go tell that to all of the people who write addons for Adobe, Firefox, and so on.

Why do people think that somehow music, movie and software should be free? Why do they feel entitled to download from Warez sites, rip CDs for their friend and copy movies?

I just don't get it.

[Cairenn]

Okay guys, are we back to the point where I need to start deleting posts again? Seems to be getting mighty personal again.

[Evolution85]

WOW. this got blown WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion....


Lets think about this rationally, shall we.

First, lets be honest with ourselves people. You are no threat to Blizzard. They couldnt give a rats butt about you in that regard. Blizz is a multi million dollar corp that has enough money and financial backing they dont really have to fear much. This is not an attack on you! This is attack on Carbonite! Why? Because Carbonite CHARGES for the mod. They dont ask for Donations, they dont say "if you would like". They charge. They are profiting off of property owned by Blizz. Do you really think they were going to sit around and do that? If they did, then they would not go after gold farmers, power levelers, and hackers.

Blizz stated long ago they WANT people to be able to produce mods, Ui's, and such for WoW. Anything short of automating game play. They wanted users to be able to customize their experience in WoW. And to share those creations amongst all players at their discretion. Do you realize how many people would stop playing WoW if they couldnt have their favorite mods, or UI's? I wouldnt play with the default UI if you payed ME! Do you really think they are going to attack the source of these creations that make the game more enjoyable for the majority of the player base. NO!!!!!!!

NO WHERE does it say you cannot ask for donations on UI sites . NO WHERE! Again, NO WHERE!!

So, for the love of all thats good, CHILL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX bad business model right there. If your whole goal was to make money at making add-ons you should have tried going in a different direction.

May be. Maybe not. But whether or not I chose the right business model really is not relevant to the topic is it?

I'm curious as to why the author feels compelled to help them at all. To use them as an excuse to garner money from them? Perhaps, not always, but maybe sometimes.

Not at all... it's called customer service. You win people over by treating them with professional kindness and respect regardless of how they treat you. When I answer the same question on the same page five times, it's because I want all five of the people who asked me that question to see and understand that (a) I respond quickly to their problems, (b) I treat them with respect, (c) I take pride in my work, (d) that I might be someone worthy of their consideration to make a donation to.

Is that a problem?

If you don't want to support the add-ons you share for free for free, charge for them right up front and make a business out of the whole damn thing.

Well.. that's not exactly an option now with the new Bliz terms is it. Maybe it's a good thing that I've been using the donation model all along after all. The only thing that has changed for me as a result of the new rules is I cannot offer the premium version for making a donation and I have to find a creative way to make sure people are aware that their donations matter.

You can't walk into a store, grab any item you want off the shelf and walk out the door without paying for it and expect to call the store asking for free help.

No... you can't. However, if Adobe offers users a free trial of their software suite and the user who has not yet decided whether or not to pay for that suite has a technical problem they need help with, it wouldn't be very intelligent for Adobe to tell them to piss off until they pay for it would it? Adobe would do what I do... answer the customer's question in as respectful and professional a manner as they can in the hopes that their response to the customer's problem would further entire the customer to make the CHOICE to purchase their product.

[Mikord]

Originally Posted by Tekkub Copyright gives the author the right to charge for his work. Plain and simple. It's not a matter of entitlement, it's a matter of the artist's rights with respect to how his work is copied and distributed.

Tekkub hit the nail on the head here. All code is fully copyrighted by default unless it is specifically licensed otherwise. Blizzard is overstepping their bounds in dictating how authors distribute their copyrighted work, period. I am completely appalled by Blizzard's complete lack of respect for the rights of authors by attempting to dictate how they can distribute something they have full legal rights over.

I have never sold nor asked for donations in the close to four years I've poured hundreds (probably closer to a thousand now) of hours into writing, rewriting, answering questions, and generally supporting MSBT. That is a choice I've personally made and I'm not complaining about it. I only mention it to illustrate that my dismay for Blizzard's actions isn't because I'm going to lose money over it.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX Where did movies and music enter the conversation, try to keep the train on the rails here. Add-ons are nothing in comparison (nor worth) to movies or music so don't get too deep in that tangent. People make add-ons/UIs for a game that, without which, they'd not be able to create said add-on.

People make movies for projectors and televisions without which they could not exist.

In any event, right there is the crux of the entire argument... you feel addons are worthless.

There's nothing left to discuss. So, I'll stop here.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Mikord Tekkub hit the nail on the head here. All code is fully copyrighted by default unless it is specifically licensed otherwise. Blizzard is overstepping their bounds in dictating how authors distribute their copyrighted work, period. I am completely appalled by Blizzard's complete lack of respect for the rights of authors by attempting to dictate how they can distribute something they have full legal rights over.

They aren't dictating how you can distribute your addon. They're dictating how you can distribute your addon if you wish for it to be allowed in their game. Funny thing here is, I think it's totally within their rights.

Look at this from another angle. Apple can dictate what apps are allowed on the iPhone because those apps have to use a system they have control over. They've said "hey, you can charge for your apps, that's fine, but you can't make VoIP apps or browsers." And it's totally within their rights to block those apps. Same with Blizzard, if they choose to block addons based on conditions they define, they can. And one of those conditions is that the addons must be free.

Go ahead and charge for your addon. They can't stop you from doing that. But they may take actions to prevent your addon from working with their game.

[Ashamam]

Originally Posted by Tekkub They aren't dictating how you can distribute your addon. They're dictating how you can distribute your addon if you wish for it to be allowed in their game. Funny thing here is, I think it's totally within their rights. Look at this from another angle. Apple can dictate what apps are allowed on the iPhone because those apps have to use a system they have control over. They've said "hey, you can charge for your apps, that's fine, but you can't make VoIP apps or browsers." And it's totally within their rights to block those apps. Same with Blizzard, if they choose to block addons based on conditions they define, they can. And one of those conditions is that the addons must be free. Go ahead and charge for your addon. They can't stop you from doing that. But they may take actions to prevent your addon from working with their game.

How are they dictating your distribution in any way shape or form. Seems to me they are specifically staying out of that side of things. What they are doing is dictating how you IMPLEMENT your mod. So by all means solicit donations, distribute off you own site only plastered with ads and donate buttons, whatever you like, just follow their IN-GAME rules.

oh and Tekkub btw you are probably my favourite author so don't go getting all emotional about this and stop developing or something...... :P

the issue at heart seems to be the effectiveness of donation buttons in game versus out of game. I have no idea how the curse author rewards program translates to cash, but perhaps that model is a better vehicle for renumeration. (just not at curse.... shudder...)

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Ashamam How are they dictating your distribution in any way shape or form.

Did you read #1? Can't charge for your addon effects how it's distributed.

Originally Posted by Ashamam oh and Tekkub btw you are probably my favourite author so don't go getting all emotional about this and stop developing or something...... :P

I write for myself and always will, and so long as it requires minimal effort on my part (I'm a lazy ass), I will put my code out there for everyone. Oh and along those lines, I have no intents of obeying #6 :P

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Tekkub I have no intents of obeying #6 :P

Anarchist!

~grin~

[Mikord]

Originally Posted by Tekkub They aren't dictating how you can distribute your addon. They're dictating how you can distribute your addon if you wish for it to be allowed in their game. Funny thing here is, I think it's totally within their rights. ... But they may take actions to prevent your addon from working with their game.

I totally understand that and realize that is how they would enforce it. When you get right down to it though, they are effectively dictating the distribution rights of the author's code (granted in a legal fashion). When I said they're overstepping their bounds, I didn't mean in a legal sense. I should have been more clear.

I've never had any plans of selling a WoW addon, but I think it just goes to show what little respect Blizzard has for the authors who have provided the ideas for the vast majority of their own UI enhancements over the years.

Anyways, there is no sense in beating a dead horse. They're going to do whatever they want.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Mikord When I said they're overstepping their bounds, I didn't mean in a legal sense. I should have been more clear.

I think this whole thread needs a liberal smattering of the words "I think".

At least, that's what I think.

[spiel2001]

I think what you think is likely what they think too.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by Mikord Anyways, there is no sense in beating a dead horse.

awww, but, but, I have such a good smilie for that!