WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by Jalandar Tristanian is correct. What they did is perfectly legal.

From the Terms of Service of the site:

Originally Posted by http://www.mmoui.com/tos.php You specifically agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services through any automated means (including use of scripts or web crawlers).

Deep linking is not illegal. Violating the ToS is.

[Yhor]

Originally Posted by Vyper From the Terms of Service of the site: Deep linking is not illegal. Violating the ToS is.

So is it WM, the user of WM, or both that should be named in violation? If you banned the users of the program, would that not give you the same grounds for litigation as the glider case, against WM?

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Vyper From the Terms of Service of the site: Deep linking is not illegal. Violating the ToS is.

TOS are not laws, and do not carry a force of law. If I violate a TOS, your sole relief is to sanction me within your technical means regarding my use of your service.

[Tekkub]

*quietly points at the Glider case*

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by Jalandar If I violate a TOS, your sole relief is to sanction me within your technical means regarding my use of your service.

Which is exactly what we did. So you are jumping up and down yelling at us, why?

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by Jalandar TOS are not laws, and do not carry a force of law. If I violate a TOS, your sole relief is to sanction me within your technical means regarding my use of your service.

TOS is a legally binding contract between the users, and the owners site itself. Exactly like the license agreement on software. Violation of the terms of service constitutes a breach of contract and can therefore lead to a lawsuit if ZAM so chose.

You might try to claim WoWMatrix is not a user of the site, but if they ever visited this site even testing their own software, they are subject to the Terms of Use.

[Yhor]

Sorry Cairenn, this just fits so well .

Cairenn: So, WM is bad for WoWI, any questions?
Mob Member: Oh, yeah, yeah, I got a question there. When do we get to light our torches?
Cairenn: When it gets dark.
Mob Member: Ah, I see. Oh, hey, I got another question there. Suppose, hypothetically, you know, a guy had already lit his torch. I mean, it'd be cool if he could just keep it lit, huh?
Cairenn: Yes.
Mob Member: Oh, excellent. Excellent.
Cairenn: Now, if there are no more questions...
Mob Member: Oh, hey, hey, hey, I got another question. Hey, uh, if one part of the mob gets separated from another part of the mob, shouldn't there be a place that we can get together? Maybe a secret place the two mobs could reunite, and we'd be a big mob again.
Cairenn: Stay with the mob.
Mob Member: Stay with the mob. All right.
Cairenn: Right.
Mob Member: Hey, hey, hey, I got another question. Hey, uh, doesn't this guy deserve a fair trial?
Cairenn: You - back of the mob!
Mob Member: "Back of the mob"? What? This is my spot! I came early!
Cairenn: Okay, *out* of the mob!
Mob Member: Ah, this mob blows.




**WoWI, and Cairenn had not taken part of this fictional conversation, it is a quote from a movie, not from these forums. The name Sgt. Sisk was replaced by the name Cairenn.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Vyper TOS is a legally binding contract between the users, and the owners site itself. Exactly like the license agreement on software. Violation of the terms of service constitutes a breach of contract and can therefore lead to a lawsuit if ZAM so chose. You might try to claim WoWMatrix is not a user of the site, but if they ever visited this site even testing their own software, they are subject to the Terms of Use.

Sorry, but your interpretation of the law is incorrect. Simply visiting the site is not enough to make any subject to your TOS in any binding fashion.

It's all nice to think so, but the reality is far from it.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Which is exactly what we did. So you are jumping up and down yelling at us, why?

I've never said you were not within your "rights" to do what you did, in the manner you did it. Having the right and "being right" are completely different issues. My problem is with the latter.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by Jalandar Sorry, but your interpretation of the law is incorrect. Simply visiting the site is not enough to make any subject to your TOS in any binding fashion. It's all nice to think so, but the reality is far from it.

Actually it is, provided the terms of that contract are not considered unlawful. That said, prove me wrong. Find me a single case in the United States where the Terms of Service were not held legally binding though the terms were not found to be unlawful.

By using the services you consent to the Terms of Service, just like by installing software you agree to the license agreement.

Thats also why you'll see at the top of these things stuff like

Originally Posted by http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS 1.4 The Universal Terms, together with the Additional Terms, form a legally binding agreement between you and Google in relation to your use of the Services. It is important that you take the time to read them carefully. Collectively, this legal agreement is referred to below as the “Terms”.

or

Originally Posted by http://www.mmoui.com/tos.php You may not use the Services and may not accept the Terms if (a) you are not of legal age to form a binding contract with ZAM.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Tekkub *quietly points at the Glider case*

A very very very different set of issues than what we are discussing here, a website TOS.

And even the EFF does not believe the glider case will stand up on appeal.

[Yhor]

Originally Posted by Jalandar I've never said you were not within your "rights" to do what you did, in the manner you did it. Having the right and "being right" are completely different issues. My problem is with the latter.

So, they should have waited to block WoWMatrix the day they have to file for bankruptcy?

When exactly would have been a convenient time for WM users? God forbid someone gets inconvenienced from using an abusive program at an "inappropriate" time.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Vyper Actually it is, provided the terms of that contract are not considered unlawful. That said, prove me wrong. Find me a single case in the United States where the Terms of Service were not held legally binding though the terms were not found to be unlawful. By using the services you consent to the Terms of Service, just like by installing software you agree to the license agreement.

Find a single case where they were?

It's not as clear cut as you think. You have to actually show that I AFFIRMATIVELY agreed. Passive agreement is not acceptable, nor binding.

And again, do not carry a force of law anyway. In order for a breach of contract case, there has to actually be an exchange of value between the parties to the contract.

Talk to a real attorney about it, and you will get an education.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Yhor So, they should have waited to block WoWMatrix the day they have to file for bankruptcy? When exactly would have been a convenient time for WM users? God forbid someone gets inconvenienced from using an abusive program at an "inappropriate" time.

Again, not my point. And abusive in your definition, perhaps. Remember, terms like that are not objective, but subjective, and open to differing points of view.

[Yhor]

Originally Posted by Jalandar Again, not my point. And abusive in your definition, perhaps. Remember, terms like that are not objective, but subjective, and open to differing points of view.

Abusive to the operating costs of this website is not 'my definition', it's fact. If it's not your point, though, then why bring it up, repeatedly?

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Jalandar A very very very different set of issues than what we are discussing here, a website TOS.

Providing software that enables the user to violate the TOS of another business. Don't seem very different, in fact it seems exactly the same...

[us2006027321]

/delurk

I've seen too much. Can... not... resist...

Originally Posted by Tekkub Hey now, I'm a pirate, and yet I retain the rights to throw a *****fit at people that try to make money off my work without my permission. The two are not exclusive.

Tekkub, I'm going to take this moment to be a d*ck, and I hope you don't take it personal. The minute anyone becomes a hypocrite in the process of making an argument is the minute their argument becomes entirely specious. I will agree with you that the two may not be mutually exclusive, but that doesn't stop someone from being a blazingly obvious hypocrite for holding both to be true in his mind. We who are logical beings call that a double-standard, and if anything I've said applies directly to you, I apologize in advance. (I warned you that I was going to be a d*ck.) I still like you, though.

Originally Posted by Jalandar Those are not legitimate questions, they are thinly veiled attacks, not an attempt to engage in a true dialog. You even answered many of your own questions, and surely know the answer to most of the others.

They are extremely legitimate questions, and they deserve answers. Even if those were nothing more than vehement expressions of rage, I think they've been long in coming. These forums are chalk full of reasons why they're valid, whether you choose to see them that way or not, and if you won't see them that way, I'm not going to take the time to explain that to you, and neither should anyone else. Translate my signature to figure out why.

Originally Posted by Jalandar This is not "WoWMatrix stealing bandwidth" because that is very simply not what they did. They provide an alternative front end for users to access content on your site, and in much the same fashion that many other "custom content" front ends do. I could write a simple script for Firefox that strips out all the content on every addon page I visit on WoWInterface except the Download link and version numbers, if I wanted. I could then distribute that script to others. Nothing I am doing with that is illegal, and is barely different from what WoWMatrix was doing. Vilify them all you want, but the "bandwidth stealing" and "WM was breaking the law" argument remains the most incorrect points used to describe what was happening.

Originally Posted by Jalandar TOS are not laws, and do not carry a force of law. If I violate a TOS, your sole relief is to sanction me within your technical means regarding my use of your service.

If I hire someone to kill my ex-wife, I won't go to jail for murder in the first degree, but I will go to jail for conspiracy to commit murder in the first degree. I also will be an accessory, and if the courts can find anything else illegal about what I've done, I assure you, they'll throw the book at me. You seem to lack a very basic understanding about how the legal system, legal documents, and legal jargon function, so I'm going to spell it out for you.

While WowMatrix is indeed not liable for the theft of the bandwidth (and the end users are to answer other comments made), they can be held liable for what boils down to exploiting a lack of security and then making money off it. (Understand here: hiring someone to steal the Mona Lisa and then reselling it.) This is nothing more than glorified hacking. You've managed to find what might be a grey area (somethin akin to using .torrent files to pirate various forms of media), but even if you did, I have a feeling that if WoWI and Curse took this to court, anyone with at least half a brain in their head who gets paid to do this for a living would see this exactly how I have described it to you, and WowMatrix would lose.

In your example, the chief difference is that you are still going directly do the website, and other people would have to do the same. That crucial difference changes everything, and your analogy ceases to hold any kind of weight in your argument.

Furthermore, Terms of Service do indeed carry the force of law in that they become the cornerstone of any case in which they were violated so badly that the generator of those terms feels that they warrant court action. If you need better understanding, ask a lawyer. And, I'm boggled that you're blasting WoWI and Curse in the face for blocking WM out, when you just got done in that comment saying that they're ToS gives them the right to do exactly that. Who's side are you on? Make up your mind.

None of this has anything to do with vilification of any kind beyond what WM has done to themselves. It could be said that Jews vilified Hitler (yeah, I went there), but I think we can all agree that it was well-deserved. Ultimately, Jal, I understand from your posts that you're here to make an emotional argument, not a rational one, and I can respect that as long as we both understand that no matter how rational I am about the irrational things you say, you ultimately won't come around.

Let's see... covered hypocrisy, legality, singing pigs...

Yeah, I'm done here.

[Torhal]

Originally Posted by us2006027321 They are extremely legitimate questions, and they deserve answers. Even if those were nothing more than vehement expressions of rage, I think they've been long in coming. These forums are chalk full of reasons why they're valid, whether you choose to see them that way or not, and if you won't see them that way, I'm not going to take the time to explain that to you, and neither should anyone else. Translate my signature to figure out why. Yeah, I'm done here.

Eh, don't feed the trolls. He used the same tactics on the o.forums a couple of weeks ago, once again on a topic he started, while simultaneously avoiding answering questions himself and calling those who asked them trolls.

[Tekkub]

Hypocrite? I didn't say that the pirate lifestyle is fair and just now did I? It's one thing to steal other people work for you own enjoyment, it's quite another to steal it and make money off it.

Besides, I never said I was a music/movie/software/book pirate. For all you know I could well be a dirty ass pirate.

*edit* oh and yes, they're legitimate, and yes, they are thinly veiled attacks... and yes, they deserve answers. But he's not interested in playing the unbiased mediator in the situation and reporting both sides fairly, he's already shown an obvious bias to WM. If he was unbiased, he'd ask the questions Cair posted, because they're the questions that everyone on this side of the debate wants answers to. WM is welcome to pose any questions they want as well... but as Cair's questions point out, THEY WON'T TALK TO US.

[Cairenn]

Actually, I think it's a well known, and self admitted, fact that he's a bacon pirate.