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05-06-09, 02:13 PM   #21
Pyrophoric
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Originally Posted by Gemini_II View Post
Whether you love Curse or hate it, you have to respect them as a business. I'm not fond os the website layout but will use their updater. And I won't ***** that it has adds, or is slow either; because it's free. No one has the right to complain when it's free. I still support Curse and WoWI in this. They pay the bills so why should WM get a free ride?

Imagine going to Wal-mart to find some cheap clothes, and you find out later that they have been stealing boxes from Sears and Bay trucks and selling them. Wouldn't Wal-mart lose a whole lot of respect in most people's eyes? Similar scenario.


Those are the kind of petty comments that a professional business generally doesn't make.

I can heer WM's QQ's threw teh interwebz
Flawed logic because you cant truly steal something that was free in the first place.

It's more like three clothing outlets all with a similar clothing line. Two are paying for shipping while the third is just having his stuff delivered on the same trucks and saving on shipping.

Not saying it is right, compensation and an agreement should be made.
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05-06-09, 02:13 PM   #22
bknab
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Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
While I believe WoWM's side of the story, I also believe that most of the animosity has stemmed from Curse and their greed.
I find it hard to comprehend how someone can believe WM's side of the story. I admit if this "disagreement" were merely between WM, WoWI and Curse I might find it hard to discern who was being truthful here.

However that is not the case, many AddOn authors themselves have been speaking out against WM since they released their updater. WM changed code to remove donation requests and did not cite authors and give credit where credit was due. Do these authors not deserve to be known for their work? Do they not deserve contributions from those who wish donate?

At first many authors just wanted to be cited for their work since WM did not provide this information when downloading an AddOn. After WM did nothing many authors asked for their AddOns to be removed, after all, it is their work. Still, WM did nothing.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, I could keep going but I digress, I'm hungry. Time for lunch!
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05-06-09, 02:15 PM   #23
Pyrophoric
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Originally Posted by Spookie455 View Post
Which is why WoWM provide such brilliant tools for the budding author and Curse/WoWI doesn't.

Oh wait.
?

This comment confuses me. lol
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05-06-09, 02:21 PM   #24
Zyonin
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Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
?

This comment confuses me. lol
That was sarcasm.

However the meat of that statement:

WM does not provide any tools for AddOn authors other than a means of distribution. However both Curse and WoWInterface both provide a means of distribution, a version control system (this is a biggie for authors as this allows them to keep track of changes to their code), forums to solict user feedback and bug reports, plus a place for the Author to showcase their AddOn.

All WM offers is a way to move the mod and to see it in an updater. There is no place to showcase the mod, no tools to help the developer, no forums for the developer to interact with his/her users, in short no compelling reason for an Author to use WoWMatrix.
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Last edited by Zyonin : 05-06-09 at 02:40 PM.
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05-06-09, 02:32 PM   #25
Spookie455
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Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
?

This comment confuses me. lol
See what Lykofos said. (It's fairly difficult to respond promptly while raiding at the moment).

I do find it hilarious that the moment the people who have provided so much support the last couple of years asks for a little in return at this harsh period. People are far too happy to bite the hand that feeds them.
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05-06-09, 02:41 PM   #26
Pyrophoric
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Originally Posted by Lykofos View Post
That was sarcasm.

However the meat of that statement: WM does not provide any tools for AddOn authors other than a means of distribution. However both Curse and WoWInterface both provide a means of distribution, a version control system (this is a biggie for authors as this allows them to keep track of changes to their code), forums to solict user feedback and bug reports, plus a place for the Author to showcase their AddOn. All WM offers is a way to move the mod and to see it in an updater. There is no place to showcase the mod, no tools to help the developer, no forums for the developer to interact with his/her users, in short no compelling reason for an Author to use WoWMatrix.
Heh... I understood the sarcasm. I did not understand what specifically what they were implying though.

Forums and feedback are most beneficial to users, not authors, unless the addon wasnt free.

Showcasing is just more time the author has to spend explaining what their addon does and why it does it. While some may enjoy this process, many do not seem to care either way.

Version control system? I wouldn't see this as being much of a problem but I will take your word for it.

User interaction is seems to be at the bottom of authors list. In fact, many authors have stopped making plugins simply because people left negative or hurtful feedback. Most recently, the author of Outfitter WAS going to stop releasing public updates for this exact reason.

Reasons to use WoWMatrix ... it's lite, simple and quick. The author information is displayed and they added a donation popup so you can easily contribute directly to the author.

Really, I don't support anything here other than an easy-to-use updater. The fact that I believe WoWMatrix is mostly because of the information I have seen. I haven't seen information that has definitively proven one side or another. Until a time when that can be done, I will support whatever updater saves me time and enables me to just hop on and play the way I want for an hour or less. The minutes I save having to update 30-40 mods is better spent going to the spending time with my loved ones or going to the gym.
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05-06-09, 02:46 PM   #27
Pyrophoric
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Originally Posted by Spookie455 View Post
See what Lykofos said. (It's fairly difficult to respond promptly while raiding at the moment).

I do find it hilarious that the moment the people who have provided so much support the last couple of years asks for a little in return at this harsh period. People are far too happy to bite the hand that feeds them.
They aren't asking for a little in return. A little is what they are already receiving via ads and such. They are asking a lot from users with the introduction of their premium service (speaking of Curse of course) with virtually no benefit.

The main selling points of curse premium? No ads and update all. Both would be awesome features and well worth a premium if they actually worked as intended. Because Curse doesn't host all the most popular addons, you still have to venture to other sites and by doing that you are still subjecting yourself to ads at those other sites. This makes both selling points for the Curse premium subscription moot.

I fully support WoWI and the course they are going. I wish they would not have blocked WoWMatrix but look forward to their new updater.
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05-06-09, 02:48 PM   #28
Evolution85
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Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
will support whatever updater saves me time and enables me to just hop on and play the way I want for an hour or less. The minutes I save having to update 30-40 mods is better spent going to the spending time with my loved ones or going to the gym.

And this sentiment right here is at the meat of it.....

When you have an issue with your add ons, good luck getting WoWM to help you.
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05-06-09, 02:48 PM   #29
Cairenn
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I just posted this in another thread, but I want to make darn good and sure that everyone has seen it, so posting it here as well.

Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
FYI: I have had absolutely enough with the personal attacks.

We've said it over and over and over again throughout this thread (amongst others). Either you follow the site rules, specifically:

Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
The condensed version, for those that aren't Monty Python fans.

1. Post with respect and courtesy. Debate is fine ... so long as when you disagree with someone, you respond in a civilized and constructive manner.

2. No slander. Don't come here and slam/flame anyone/thing. Don't come here sounding off that Blizz sucks, EQ sucks, mod_author_01 sucks, etc and so on. None of that. You want to post things like that, take it elsewhere, there are enough other boards that cater to that type of thing. This isn't FlameVault. See 1.
Or I am going to start handing out temporary vacations from the site or full out bans. Now stop it.

No, I'm not saying that there has been any in here so far, but I'm just warning you guys that my patience is at an end.
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05-06-09, 02:53 PM   #30
Spookie455
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Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
The main selling points of curse premium? No ads and update all. Both would be awesome features and well worth a premium if they actually worked as intended. Because Curse doesn't host all the most popular addons, you still have to venture to other sites and by doing that you are still subjecting yourself to ads at those other sites. This makes both selling points for the Curse premium subscription moot.
They also give 20% of the income to addon developers which is a nice touch. But far too many people see addons as something they are entitled to. But anyway I'm driving this off topic to being about curse, which it should be. I guess my over arching statement was that WoWI and Curse were never going to be able to provide a free lunch forever.

Last edited by Spookie455 : 05-06-09 at 02:55 PM.
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05-06-09, 02:55 PM   #31
Tristanian
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Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
Who said anything about Curse not making money? Sure, make money to pay for hosting the site through ads, not through users. Let the users contribute directly to the authors as it should be.
Which is exactly what they are doing with the free version of the CC client (which has ads as you are well aware). Users can still contribute to the authors directly, should they choose to. Nothing in that regard has been taken away from them. Please decide where you are going with this and stop contradicting yourself.

I am calling out their greed because of their recent thirst (as I see it) for money. Why should I stop myself just because they were a better company in the past?
So this is all a huge conspiracy of Curse to suddenly make money, when they have been paying to support addons for years with no form of tangible compensation that would allow them to sustain themselves and provide better services to both the authors and users ? Ok.

If I saved a life 2 years ago does that absolve me from taking a life today?
There must be a rule against flawed analogies really (on this site or anywhere else for that matter). Would you have payed to cover the expenses of a service that you received zero benefit from ? In what universe ? Because I want to live there.

Furthermore, why is someone who chooses a side always considered a blind follower and or ignorant?

Forgive us for supporting something that personally made our lives a little easier and spared a moment of our lives so that I could spend it doing something other than playing World of Warcraft/Updating mods.
Because you choose a side purely with the mindset that they provided something that was beneficial and convenient to you (which no one has refuted EVER), despite the harmful and detrimental consequences it may have had on others. There is always the other side of the coin.

There is no clear answer to who is right an wrong here. One side says the other is at fault, the other points the finger right back. We don't really have proof either way as to who is to blame.
Oh, trust me it is very, very clear who is right. Have you been following the subject for a couple of years as many of us have, you would have realized this. Hell, you can even now go back to WoWAce and do some research on how it all started, what their stance was and what has transpired since then. There is plenty of proof of how WM was operating then and how they slowly (and stealthily) changed their stance, in order to gain the support of their users, make us look like liars, while continuing to reap the benefits of work that no one opted-in to have them support/distribute.


All I know is I would enjoy another mass updater, free or otherwise, if it would simply auto update and pull from all sites so no background work has to be done.
Like I said, realistically speaking, this is unlikely to happen, in the real world barring some sort of a miracle. Minion seems promising, as it will supposedly allow freedom of modules that can handle downloads not hosted on WoWI. Whether the other websites will be willing to go along with this (and any terms involved) remains to be seen. Time will tell.
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05-06-09, 02:56 PM   #32
Andeillin
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I find it rather disturbing that wowinterface and curse gaming are trying to now make money off wm idea.
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05-06-09, 02:57 PM   #33
Pyrophoric
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Originally Posted by Evolution85 View Post
And this sentiment right here is at the meat of it.....

When you have an issue with your add ons, good luck getting WoWM to help you.
Touche

That is why I think all three sites should work together. If I had a problem, I would spend a few minutes tinkering with it at best then head over to WoWI to see if anyone else had the problem. If not, then I just disable the addon for the time being or possibly look for an alternative.
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05-06-09, 03:00 PM   #34
Pyrophoric
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Originally Posted by Spookie455 View Post
They also give 20% of the income to addon developers which is a nice touch. But far too many people see addons as something they are entitled to. But anyway I'm driving this off topic to being about curse, which it should be. I guess my over arching statement was that WoWI and Curse were never going to be able to provide a free lunch forever.
I am all for the donation program setup for authors. However, I prefer giving 100% to the authors since there are no real perks subscribing to premium. IMO, I am wasting 80% of my money when that could be going to the right people.
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05-06-09, 03:03 PM   #35
Pyrophoric
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
Which is exactly what they are doing with the free version of the CC client (which has ads as you are well aware). Users can still contribute to the authors directly, should they choose to. Nothing in that regard has been taken away from them. Please decide where you are going with this and stop contradicting yourself.



So this is all a huge conspiracy of Curse to suddenly make money, when they have been paying to support addons for years with no form of tangible compensation that would allow them to sustain themselves and provide better services to both the authors and users ? Ok.



There must be a rule against flawed analogies really (on this site or anywhere else for that matter). Would you have payed to cover the expenses of a service that you received zero benefit from ? In what universe ? Because I want to live there.



Because you choose a side purely with the mindset that they provided something that was beneficial and convenient to you (which no one has refuted EVER), despite the harmful and detrimental consequences it may have had on others. There is always the other side of the coin.



Oh, trust me it is very, very clear who is right. Have you been following the subject for a couple of years as many of us have, you would have realized this. Hell, you can even now go back to WoWAce and do some research on how it all started, what their stance was and what has transpired since then. There is plenty of proof of how WM was operating then and how they slowly (and stealthily) changed their stance, in order to gain the support of their users, make us look like liars, while continuing to reap the benefits of work that no one opted-in to have them support/distribute.




Like I said, realistically speaking, this is unlikely to happen, in the real world barring some sort of a miracle. Minion seems promising, as it will supposedly allow freedom of modules that can handle downloads not hosted on WoWI. Whether the other websites will be willing to go along with this (and any terms involved) remains to be seen. Time will tell.
Sorry man, I stopped reading what you said after the third quote. You clearly have not understood much of what I was saying and are just not admitting to it. There is no contradiction, read everything I have said again if you want ... have at it.

I am not getting into an argument with you and will leave as much alone with just saying I agree to disagree.
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05-06-09, 03:04 PM   #36
Zyonin
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Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
Heh... I understood the sarcasm. I did not understand what specifically what they were implying though.

Forums and feedback are most beneficial to users, not authors, unless the addon wasnt free.
Forums and feedback are useful authors as well. While an author can spend a lot of time debugging, users will still find bugs. Its just the nature of programming. For many small AddOns, a single forum thread takes care of their feedback needs. Other larger AddOns may have entire forum sections devoted to just them (look at oUF on this site for a good example).

Showcasing is just more time the author has to spend explaining what their addon does and why it does it. While some may enjoy this process, many do not seem to care either way.
Those authors who do a poor job of "selling" their AddOn to a potential user usually finds that the author does not get many downloads. An good author will take the time to show a potential user why his/her AddOn would be a good addition to the user's UI. Such a write up will include screenshots and in some cases even videos. Personally I want to see what an AddOn does before I hit the download button.

Version control system? I wouldn't see this as being much of a problem but I will take your word for it.
You are not an author so you would not see the benefits of a version control system such as SVN, Git or Mecurial. Then again an average user will never see the inside of a development repository nor should they. However I am a power user, tester, and AddOn author. I know the benefits of using a version control system. I have even have a Git set up on my machine to keep track of my local changes to my AddOns.

User interaction is seems to be at the bottom of authors list. In fact, many authors have stopped making plugins simply because people left negative or hurtful feedback. Most recently, the author of Outfitter WAS going to stop releasing public updates for this exact reason.
The author of Outfitter was going to stop public releases of his mods in protest over the new UI Development policy that Blizzard unleashed a few weeks ago. This had NOTHING to do with user interaction.

Most AddOn authors welcome user interaction as those users (in particular power users) will submit ideas and bug reports. Other users will contribute artwork, textures and even additional modules for the AddOn. Users who speak languages other than the author's will do localization (aka translation) for an author as well. Trust me, this is a big deal with WoW being a multi language game.

Reasons to use WoWMatrix ... it's lite, simple and quick. The author information is displayed and they added a donation popup so you can easily contribute directly to the author.
The only reason why author info and the donation pop-ups where added was to try to regain some "legitimacy" from Authors. However this is a case of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. The changes where made to WoWMatrix after Authors hammered on WM for years (literally). WoWMatrix first popped up on our radar back in October of 2007.

Really, I don't support anything here other than an easy-to-use updater. The fact that I believe WoWMatrix is mostly because of the information I have seen. I haven't seen information that has definitively proven one side or another. Until a time when that can be done, I will support whatever updater saves me time and enables me to just hop on and play the way I want for an hour or less. The minutes I save having to update 30-40 mods is better spent going to the spending time with my loved ones or going to the gym.
No one has EVER said that WoWMatrix's updater was crappy. In fact all have said it is an excellent tool. However the business practices of WoWMatrix is what has drawn the wrath of Authors, Curse and WoWInterface. Curse and WoWI have tried to work with WM, however WM has constantly rebuffed them (contrary to WM's "FAQ"). Authors have found it to be extremely difficult to get their AddOns removed from the updater. In some case Authors have had to resort to using DMCA takedown notices to get their Addons removed.

Now I run quite a few AddOns myself. Do you know how many I have to update at a time? 3 to 4 a week IF there are major code changes. The vast majority of changes are small things that do not effect the AddOn. These changes are things like version control tag changes, or localization updates (aka a button that says No in English got translated to "nien" in German). Do you really need these changes? No. So why update 35 to 40 AddOn daily or even weekly? I do all my updates manually. This is on top of being a father, moderating several forums, serving as a Guild officer, keeping my house clean, cooking, getting out for my hour's daily walk, getting my kid to and a from school plus helping with homework and a myriad of other daily RL tasks.
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Last edited by Zyonin : 05-06-09 at 03:17 PM. Reason: My grammer is a bit lacking...
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05-06-09, 03:06 PM   #37
ArrchDK
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Originally Posted by Andeillin View Post
I find it rather disturbing that wowinterface and curse gaming are trying to now make money off wm idea.

What?!? What exactly is the "wm idea" that Curse and WoWI are "tying to now make money off"?
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05-06-09, 03:12 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ArrchDK View Post
What?!? What exactly is the "wm idea" that Curse and WoWI are "tying to now make money off"?
I assume he's thinking that WM was the first to come up with an auto-updater.
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05-06-09, 03:12 PM   #39
Spookie455
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Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
I am all for the donation program setup for authors. However, I prefer giving 100% to the authors since there are no real perks subscribing to premium. IMO, I am wasting 80% of my money when that could be going to the right people.
Fair enough it's up to you and what you consider your priority. If I'm being honest I'd rather throw the money straight at Tek (only mentioning him as I just this moment updated one of his addons :P) than an auto updater. But since I'm out of work it's not feasible for me to do anything at the moment.

Given the choice I'd happily become a supporter of WoWI and throw the odd couple of quid towards the authors who genuinely make my life a little easier. Nothing against Curse. I get more mileage out of this website. Oh and the community is much better too.

Ah **** driven it off topic again! Sorry.
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05-06-09, 03:13 PM   #40
bknab
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Originally Posted by Andeillin View Post
I find it rather disturbing that wowinterface and curse gaming are trying to now make money off wm idea.
Right, because WoWI is charging for minion. Oh, and Curse didn't pay for WAU's bandwidth at no gain to themselves, long before WM released their updater. I thoroughly see your point.

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post
I am all for the donation program setup for authors. However, I prefer giving 100% to the authors since there are no real perks subscribing to premium. IMO, I am wasting 80% of my money when that could be going to the right people.
I'm not sure, but I think that's the first thing you've said that I agree with.
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