Quantcast TBC UI Changes - Page 3 - WoWInterface
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10-09-06, 11:25 AM   #41
sid67
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Don't like the forthcoming UI changes? Do something about it. Send an email to someone who can speak with a bigger voice.

Blizzard has investors. Investors dont like bad press. Want them to change? Email game editors. Here is a list of a few I have collected.

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
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10-09-06, 12:32 PM   #42
simko
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I like it of couse as said before nothing is set in stone.

I personally hate when a addon mod is demanded to be even be invited to a raid beacuse it plays such a huge part of the success.
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10-09-06, 12:45 PM   #43
sid67
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I personally hate when a addon mod is demanded to be even be invited to a raid beacuse it plays such a huge part of the success.
It certainly is a pain in the neck, but it's not like these changes will stop that from happening. There will still be other *required* addons, including the 3rd party ones like vent or teamspeak that allow people to talk.
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10-09-06, 01:12 PM   #44
Barras
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963)
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10-09-06, 08:44 PM   #45
Cairenn
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An excellent read about the changes.
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10-10-06, 01:47 AM   #46
Tabithy
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I personally hate when a addon mod is demanded to be even be invited to a raid beacuse it plays such a huge part of the success.
You're right, Blizzard shouldn't stop with Decursive and Emergency Monitor, they should also get rid of Ventrillo and TeamSpeak
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10-10-06, 01:52 AM   #47
yutt
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Originally Posted by Cairenn
An excellent read about the changes.
Bah, it's pure propaganda that sounds like it was written by Blizzard's PR department.

Just like everything else in support of the changes, it's all pretending the current game will cease to exist upon the release of the expansion. Debuff removal is a huge aspect of the existing game. It will likely be an aspect of the TBC, at the very least, existing content will still be based around it. Healing without a doubt will be part of the TBC, are we ignoring the changes to that?

You can't convince me removing hundreds (literally) of debuffs per fight manually is fun; no matter how rational you try to sound, or how many words you use. It's really quite simple to understand -- mass debuff removal and never being allowed to look away from the UI is not enjoyable for most people.
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10-10-06, 02:04 AM   #48
Kirion
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Originally Posted by simko
I like it of couse as said before nothing is set in stone.

I personally hate when a addon mod is demanded to be even be invited to a raid beacuse it plays such a huge part of the success.
You are hunter, don't you?


Anyway, i think i can live with changes. Clickcasting make life of healer a lot easier, though seems i need mouse with more buttons . I will miss squishy and detox a lot.. but lets see what kind of bosses blizz will made. And i don't even care if they implement cleanse fest fights like Chromm. I fear bosses like Noth, where is clearly impossible to decurse raid without addon.
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10-10-06, 11:05 AM   #49
ReverendD
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Just a small note to healers.

I have played healers all my life in all games I have played. From pen and paper to Console, to PC, so on and so forth. When one chooses to be a healer, they are choosing to _not look_ around and see the scenery. They have chosen to look at bars and watch or listen when someone needs help. That is your role. Think of it as being the person who drives the car on long trips. You get to see things, but your vision is limited to making sure the trip is safe by watching the road more than anything else. If you want to look around, then wait till combat (or the trip) is over or have someone take pics.

On mods, you dont need mods to be a good healer. You have to have a good eye and a fast mouse or know your keybindings as well as you know your own name. But the biggest thing you need to have is the ability to expect things, such as your damage spikes, healing with other healers in party, and minimizing mana usage. When you learn to heal, you are learning to expect when people will need your help, weather it is healing damage already taken, preventing damage you know to be soon forth coming, or removing an inconvienent sheeping on a tank. You just dont need them.

Now I am not going to address every single Healer argument in this thread cause that would take hours, but the point is you chose your role as a healer. It is your duty to look at those bars, not let something else do the work for you so you can look around. I suggest you try healing for real. If you find you cant heal w/o mods, them try a different class.
(Oh, and yes, I do have a few auto-rank macros I use. However, they cast spells based on the highest spell rank that level can receive, not based on what buffs they do or do not have, or how much health they have left. Even lowbies need help.)


Now one last note - Healers are instramental in large raids and many parts of the game. That will never change. But a party who knows how to take care of themselves and actually pays attention to their own health, and the health and mana needs of their casters (healers and mages alike) before rushing headlong into their own death only to b***h about how they werent healed in time, will get farther with a bad healer than any group can get with the best healers, and still have fun.
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10-10-06, 11:26 AM   #50
shouryuu
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Originally Posted by yutt
You can't convince me removing hundreds (literally) of debuffs per fight manually is fun; no matter how rational you try to sound, or how many words you use. It's really quite simple to understand -- mass debuff removal and never being allowed to look away from the UI is not enjoyable for most people.
All in all, when you play WoW, you're just pressing buttons for hours and hours on end. What makes WoW fun is all the social content, it's the thrill of beating an encounter, the joy of obtaining a certain item, so yeah sure, all of those things requiers mindless button mashing, thoughtless gazing at idioticaly colored life bars, but thats part of the fun. I'm not saying it's fun, I'm saying that it's a small aspect of the game.

I'm a priest, and I like the changes. I like the changes for several reasons, but there is one reason that I believe is the very core of several changes in TBC, including the UI one, that people tend to miss. Most good arguments defending these changes have already been made, and I won't just reiterate them, however, I will explain myself on this "core" reason.

This change will bring back your individuality, hence your freedom, to the game. This may sound retarded, too philosophical and far fetched to some, but to me, it makes a lot of sense.

With add-ons that make decisions for you, namely Decursive, you aren't "free", you are a "slave" to your machine. Freedom is easily defined as the ability to do what one wants, and with these very addons, one wasn't playing the game as one wanted to, but rather how *addons* wanted to. If you wanted to heal A but it didn't want to, well you couldn’t, and hell you wouldn't. With these addons, you weren't playing the game, you merely became an intermediate that allowed addons to play the game.

With these changes you are going to play the game exactly how *you* want to. You are the sole master of your character. If you judge it more important to decurse B rather than A, then you will do so. If that wasn't a wise choice, and the raid wipes because of that well you've learnt something, you've become a *better* player. You'll be quicker, you'll be able to respond more aptly to different unplanned situations, you'll be able to improvise, to be spontaneous, daring, bold, courageous, whichever you believe is best.

What some addons, and the previous talent trees did, is they killed individuality. Everyone decursed with decursive, in the same exact way, everyone had the same build, everyone healed in the same and so forth. Now with the new talents trees and the UI changes, you can at last be an individual player. Didn't you just hate it when there was another player that looked almost *exactly* like you, played like you, had all the same spells you had? Well this isn't going to happen as much, especially if they increase the level cap to 80 later on.

Now, players won't be picked up in raids *only* depending on their gear, but also on their style of play. In a fight which is a bit hectic, well you're going to want someone spontaneous, someone who can improvise, make quick choices, multitask. He might be a bit sloppy at times, he'll make more mistakes than some, but he'll probably take more good decisions than most. If it's a long fight, you're going to pick someone who's understands mana regen, who understands how to be mana efficient.

At last, a player is going to be picked for what is most important in this game, skill. Yes, it's going to be harder than when you mashed a few buttons, yes it's you're going to think, even maybe learn, but it will make you smarter, quicker, and simply better.

Last edited by shouryuu : 10-10-06 at 11:30 AM.
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10-10-06, 01:50 PM   #51
sid67
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they are choosing to _not look_ around and see the scenery. They have chosen to look at bars and watch or listen when someone needs help. That is your role. Think of it as being the person who drives the car on long trips.
Your joking right? Healers are "choosing" to have an inferior gameplay experience? That is a ludicrous statement. What your describing is a function of bad game design, not an active choice that players make when they pick a class that is *required* for any successful party or raid.

The game already suffers from a lack of healers and the high-end content requires a disproportionate number of healers to reliably and repeatably win encounters. How many guilds turn away priests (even bad ones) because they are full?

And these changes *will* cause healers to reroll as something else or simply quit. So lets make the game content less fun, less enjoyable and less scenic for healers. After all, they "have chosen to look at bars" when they rolled a priest.

I'm not a priest, but my main is a warrior and I do expect to be dying a LOT more often. It costs me 10g to repair from 0% durability and I expect my repair bills will be incredible in BC.

Then figure that wipes will be more common. I play a Fury DPS warrior and one of my roles is to watch for strays and pull them back to the main tank. I'm going to be a lot less effective at that without a stance switch + taunt or a stance switch + mocking blow. That means more squishies dying and thus wipes will be more common.
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10-10-06, 03:26 PM   #52
yutt
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It's amusing to me, to be a skilled DPSer you aren't required to retarget after every spell cast. Yet DPSer still maintain their "individuality", can be recognized as skilled, and can watch actual encounter. Somehow, if a healer is looking at 5- 10 health bars instead of 40 (or 25), they are "unskilled".

Walking from the Barrens to Orgrimmar doesn't make you a better player than someone who flies. It just makes you slow and stubborn.

Most of the healers in support of this change have a confused sense of ethics and aren't aware on how heavily the rest of their healers have to work to support their stubborness. Please don't let a handful of elitist masochists destroy the game for the rest of us healers.
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10-10-06, 04:21 PM   #53
Lichbane
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Originally Posted by yutt
Most of the healers in support of this change have a confused sense of ethics and aren't aware on how heavily the rest of their healers have to work to support their stubborness. Please don't let a handful of elitist masochists destroy the game for the rest of us healers.
I for one will be abandoning my healing position in raids. As a druid, I have that luxury. I'm sorry for the priests and other cleansing classes who will face the backlash as a result of the short-sightedness of Blizzard and their elitist fanbois. But I'm the bear who's busy tanking with the rest of the warriors and DPS classes.
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10-12-06, 01:28 AM   #54
Krimson
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blizz to try taking polls instead of just decreeing massive changes?

So far I've read a whole lot of negative responses to the proposed changes by Blizzard. I've heard a small handful of people defend Blizz's position and maintain a positive view that "things will all work out". I do generally believe the latter - Blizz has a multi-million dollar business at stake here, if this receives a huge backlash and people start canceling accounts, they'll change their tune real fast. But it's in Blizz's best financial interest to resolve this situation before it ever gets to that point, so we'll see them make concessions and/or we'll see mod writers work with Blizz to minimize the impact. That's all great.

But with that all said, why the H*LL hasn't Blizz put some sort of common voting/polling system in place ot ask players what they think about these things before they announe these huge sweeping changes? Ask players simple yes/no voting questions about things like whether they think the mods being affected by these changes enhance or detract from gameplay and see what the responses are. If 80% of players say these mods enhance gameplay and make it more fun/enjoyable to play their game, then the course of action is obvious.

I canceled my WoW subscription about six months ago. I just got burned out. While I was playing out my last few days of my subscription, I wasn't interested in grinding since I was canceled anyway so I started looking at mods. It was the discovery of several mods which enhanced aspects of gameplay I didn't really enjoy that sucked me back in. I know from reading forums like these that I'm not alone in this regard. I wish Blizz would stop taking shots at some of these great mods in their attempt to "fix" the balance of their world. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't see a whole lot of people jumping up and down saying things like Squishy, Emergency Monitor, ClickHeal, etc are ruining the game for everyone. Bots ruin the game for everyone - go get them Blizz and leave us legitimate players who enjoy using mods alone.

For the record, I am a casual player, I enjoy WoW because it's fun but I still take pride in what I do and put in the effort to be a top healer. When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing. And so far this is shaping up to be a change in that direction. Blizz is taking out aspects of the game I consider fun (thanks to the mods that make them so) and replacing them (or leaving a gap) with things I consider not fun (which is why I quit the first time).

And for those of you elitists out there who say "I don't use mods, mods are a crutch, L2P and healers should just be staring at bars all day", I think Blizz should just make you guys your own server type like RP or PVP called "Elitists" where all mod functionality is disabled and you get to play WoW exactly the way Blizz builds it to be, no bells or whistles added. You can all transfer to that server and enjoy yourselves, more power to you.
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10-12-06, 10:18 AM   #55
sid67
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I think Blizz should just make you guys your own server type like RP or PVP called "Elitists" where all mod functionality is disabled and you get to play WoW exactly the way Blizz builds it to be, no bells or whistles added. You can all transfer to that server and enjoy yourselves, more power to you.
That's a good idea. And they should make death cost you experience on that server. With all the dying that will happen without the UI enhancements, none of the would get past level 20.
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10-12-06, 10:18 AM   #56
shouryuu
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A voting system would simply never work, for the simple reason that players would always vote for things that are at their advantage. If Blizzard had submitted this change to a vote, sure, 90% of the voters would have said no. Does that mean anything? Not at all. Everyone wants a free mount, if Blizzard were to vote on that, 95% of everyone would answer "I want a free mount", does that mean that we *should* have free mounts? No. Things might not seem broken, because they are in our favor. Who has ever whined because an encounter was too easy? Really, who has ever cried, and yelled, and sobbed, because decursive made Lucifron an easier fight? No one.

Democracy isn't imposing the will of the majority. If that were so, we'd have no taxes for instance. Who *wants* to pay their taxes? Who runs around saying, "Boy oh boy oh boy I'm paying my taxes tomorrow! Woooohooo!!”? No one does. Because everyone hates paying taxes. But we need taxes. We need taxes to maintain roads, highways, streets, public housing, welfare, healthcare and so forth. Like Rousseau said, sometimes freedom is forced upon you.

The same applies to WoW. Freedom is forced upon you. As I said in my earlier post, these changes allow you to be free. No one is making decisions for you. Sure it's harder this way, but that's how it is. This whole game is about trial and error. This whole game is about learning through experience. We all know theorycraft doesn't always work. It's nice and neat and it *helps*, it's even needed sometimes, I agree, but it doesn't solve all your problems. The best way to understand one's class, one's role, and the mechanics of this game is by getting behind that screen and playing this great game.

Yes, to some extend, some people will have to "learn to play". I'm not saying everyone who uses decision making mods is a retard and doesn't know anything about this game. I'm saying that anyone who uses such mods, and knows exactly what they are doing, and why they are doing it; in other words, anyone who would make almost the exact same decisions the mods did had he not installed them, is a good player. He'd be using them not because they'd do things he couldn't, he'd be using them because they'd be optimizing actions he was already able to perform. Anyone else, needs to "learn to play".

Now don't run around branding me an "elitist", that's simply too easy. It's not because I don't share your opinion that I should be branded with some retarded term. I'm a casual player. I don't even play the game anymore. I leveled my priest is 24 days, he's the only 60 I have, and have basically very good pre-MC gear, nothing more. I've always been considered a good player, be it for my "skills" or my personality, and yes, I am proud to voice so. I still have a *lot* to learn about my class, about my style of play and many other things, and I welcome anyone, or anything, that allows me to uncover such knowledge; and that is why I welcome these changes.

I don't want to seem patronizing. I'm not better than anyone. Maybe I know my class better than some people; maybe how I see the priest class is completely erroneous and wrong, I don't believe there's a unique way to play one class. But I do believe that in order to understand these changes, in order to justify the act of saying "This won't make WoW fun anymore", you have to define what makes it fun. And to me, what makes it fun is simply choice. The quasi-infinite possibilities this game has to offer. I can chose to walk to Org if I wish to; it isn't as quick as flying there, but that doesn't make it any worst. Sure, if I need to be in org real fast, then flying is better, but like everything in WoW, it depends on the circumstances. Nothing is absolute in WoW. That's why I don't like decision making mods; they propose a template of "absolute" healing or decursing. With these mods, not only are people not understanding what they are doing right, but they aren't understanding what they are doing wrong, and that is something terrible to my eyes.

Last edited by shouryuu : 10-12-06 at 10:21 AM.
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10-12-06, 03:07 PM   #57
Krimson
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UI changes

Democracy isn't imposing the will of the majority. If that were so, we'd have no taxes for instance. Who *wants* to pay their taxes?
Good point, and an interesting example. I have no choice when it comes to paying taxes. I DO have a choice when it comes to playing WoW. If taxes are no longer fun, I still gotta pay 'em. By comparison, when WoW is no longer fun, I can (and will) choose to stop playing. I like WoW, I'd like to continue playing, so I will push for Blizz to make changes that maintain the aspects of WoW that I consider fun.

Everyone wants a free mount, if Blizzard were to vote on that, 95% of everyone would answer "I want a free mount"
I like to give Blizz SOME credit. I expect they have intelligent people who can come up with relevant questions to issues other than whether or not we all want a free mount. They should ask - do you think decursive is helpful or detrimental to gameplay? There are people on both sides of the spectrum, and I think Blizzard should be making more informed decisions than their designers debating in a board room somewhere. They should have direct player feedback into these decisions, and as it is all they have for that feedback are a bunch of boards where they have to dig and hunt for the gems of useful input. A direct polling system (EQ had this, they'd ask you when you logged in) to relevent issues could provide some assistance in their decision-making process.

That's why I don't like decision making mods; they propose a template of "absolute" healing or decursing. With these mods, not only are people not understanding what they are doing right, but they aren't understanding what they are doing wrong, and that is something terrible to my eyes.
I absolutely agree with you. And see the thing is, the people who ARE retards and use mods to make up for it, it's obvious. And guess what? They don't last long and stand out for what they are. People like you and me who take pride in our class and use mods to eliminate the undesirable/monotonous aspects of the game so that we enjoy it more, we stand out for who we are and people appreciate playing with us. See, mods don't change the quality of the player. That's why Blizz lets them exist - they generally don't give people unfair advantages, they just help us (the players) fix deficiencies in the default UI and enhance our game experience, customizing it to how we like to play. Blizz is specifically targetting certain mods with these changes (just like they did with the movement-bind mods a few patches ago) that many of us enjoy, and this just makes many of us frustrated with Blizz.

We're not asking for free mounts, freedom from taxes or anything extreme like that. We know there are bots out there and we know there are retards out there. Blizz needs to go get the bots. The player community can figure out the retards from the smart people themselves. Blizz just needs to leave these mods alone and let us enjoy them when they aren't considered detrimental to the gaming experience by the majority of players - these mods make THEIR game more fun to play and they're being written for FREE by the community. Yep - Blizz gets FREE help making their game more fun, which in turn sells more subscriptions (Blizz has so far gotten an extra six months outta me that they wouldn't have had if not for mod writers). They like to thank that free help by constantly chaffing against it and reducing functionality available to them. There are other ways to fix problems, they need to stop taking the easy road by disabling mod functionality (a very broad and destructive brush) and instead work on finding other solutions to the problems they are trying to solve.
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10-13-06, 11:35 AM   #58
illepic
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If I may

I have read literally hundreds of replies to this issue on these forums, my guild forums (shameless plug), the official WoW forums and on random blogs and message board strewn throughout the seedy underbelly of the internet.

Taken as whole, a clear theme emerges from this vast array of responses. Allow me to summarize some trends that I have noticed:

1) Those that are pro-UI change are:
A) Not a healing class
B) A healing class that feels inherently guilty for using something to help them heal/cleanse, somehow equating that to "cheating"
C) Players that do not understand that the API was opened up for us to use ON PURPOSE by Blizzard, to use in any way it allows us to. Many seem to feel that Decursive or Emergency Monitors are somehow illegal hacks of the game and have "just not been caught yet."
D) Fearful/unskilled of technology and are generally non-tech-savvy (someone mentioned the great percentage of raiders that cannot handle a zip file...that describes about half my raid)
E) People that presume spamming 3 buttons is somehow more skillful than using a mod to complete the task in 1.
2) Those that are anti/skeptical/dissappointed/saddened by these changes are
A) People with a very clear understanding of the WoW API, ie mod authors, highly tech savvy players
B) Hybrid healing classes
C) People that have only ever had mods to help them, equating them to essentially "built in" to WoW. Honestly, how many people have been around long enough to raid MC or BWL without CTRAID?
D) People that understand that the expansion represents a DECREASE in functionality over what is currently offered.
I was such a huge fan of WoW because it rewarded either of TWO types of inherent gaming skill:
1) Fast button mashing, lightening fast reaction time and the ability to track dozens of variables simultaneously
2) People who worked hard enough, and were smart enough, to code/utilize tools that allowed them the above skills with less manual effort, but MORE brain effort.

As you probably guessed, this all boils down to a "Work smarter not harder" mentality with me. My boss would not reward me for hand typing out 100 letters to our clients, one at a time. I'd probably get fired for the amount of time it would take me to do that. He would never come down to my office and say "Hey, because you manually typed all that and took longer doing it, you, sir, are a skilled employee." Instead, I have "mail merge" that allows me to customize 100 letters in a split second and send them out. I am rewarded for BEING TECH SAVVY and USING TOOLS to aid me in doing my job better.

This purist attitude that "real men whack-a-mole heal/cleanse" is a crutch for those that don't understand that UI customization is encouraged in WoW. When I, a paladin, outheals (with lowest overheal) most of my priests and druids in a raid, I cannot help but feel disappointment that they are not playing their classes to their full capacity.

Sorry if this post got a little troll-y. Overall, I'm very impressed with the maturity and intelligence of this forum thread! Keep it up!

Last edited by illepic : 10-13-06 at 11:53 AM.
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10-13-06, 01:11 PM   #59
Tuller
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People who worked hard enough, and were smart enough, to code/utilize tools that allowed them the above skills with less manual effort, but MORE brain effort.
I'll strawman this by saying, "Well you must think bots are perfectly fine, then." I don't expect you to agree with that opinion, and that's where you draw the line between the player actively playing the game, and a computer doing it for him or her.

I draw the line at when the computer actively decides who to target and what to cast. Automating that part of the game removes the player from doing any real strategic thinking in a raid (Who needs to have a curse right now? Do I remove this curse, or this poison effect first?). To say that Decursive should exist because removing curses is a boring job doesn't really solve the problem, now does it? Sure, I'm pressing less keys, but now I'm simply pressing one key over and over without any thought. It does not seem all that fun to me. Why not just make removing curses a more fun mechanic, instead?
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10-13-06, 03:32 PM   #60
illepic
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Originally Posted by Tuller
I'll strawman this by saying, "Well you must think bots are perfectly fine, then." I don't expect you to agree with that opinion, and that's where you draw the line between the player actively playing the game, and a computer doing it for him or her.

I draw the line at when the computer actively decides who to target and what to cast. Automating that part of the game removes the player from doing any real strategic thinking in a raid (Who needs to have a curse right now? Do I remove this curse, or this poison effect first?). To say that Decursive should exist because removing curses is a boring job doesn't really solve the problem, now does it? Sure, I'm pressing less keys, but now I'm simply pressing one key over and over without any thought. It does not seem all that fun to me. Why not just make removing curses a more fun mechanic, instead?
Though I think you're baiting a little with the bot logic up top your final point of "Why not just make removing curses a more fun mechanic, instead" is truely the right direction I think we're all hoping, nay PRAYING, for Blizzard to consider. Make it fun in ANY way and I'll be the first to wave goodbye to Decursive.

As to "curing" being a skill, we all basically cure by class priority. Set that in Decursive and spam that button. There's really no difference in spamming mouse clicks centimeters from each other (if you drag classes out on your screen like i do) or pounding the "cleanse" key on the keyboard. Skill in this game falls into situations like "recognizing a fake heal early in a duel with a shammy in order to save your repentance for later in the fight" and NOT "i'll manually target myself with my mouse and hit my cleanse key because that is what skilled players do."

You mention that using Decursive "does not seem all that fun to" you. What decursive allows is a relegation of the tedium of cleansing to the back, while allowing you to actually have fun doing other things like healing, watching the raid, moving, anticipating, bandaging, BoP'ing (in my case), etc. I think that is the crux of most pro-Decursive arguments: "Curing is a broken mechanic of the game and the community fixed it."

Makes me wonder how many players Decursive kept from going insane, effectively extending their WoW careers. Both interests won: Blizz keeps a paying customer longer and paying customer enjoys playing longer. Just check Krimson's post a few up for a testimonial. I have to agree with him. If I had to do Chromagg manually...oh...oh god...no...oh god no...

But it all boils down to the fact that I will get over it and I have faith that Blizz will rework this aspect of the game with 25 man encounters. I do think they should have included a very descriptive write up of the changes to curing encounters alongside the "all your auto target are belong to us" blue post.

Last edited by illepic : 10-13-06 at 03:36 PM.
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WoWInterface » General Discussion » Chit-Chat » TBC UI Changes

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