Feedback for Mazz/WOTLK devs

groove · 10-16-08, 12:15 PM

I noticed that Erogroth has started a "Devs Only" thread to try to round up a group of talented coders to try to get a mazzle fix or overhaul underway, and I commend him for his effort. Like most Mazzle users, I'm not a developer or coder or project manager, so I don't want to clutter that thread with feedback. It may be useful, however, to have a "suggestion box" for noncoders to post in, so that's why I'm creating this thread. If you're a noncoder but want to chip in your 2 cents, post your hopes and dreams for Mazzle here!

groove · 10-16-08, 12:30 PM

I'll start with a couple of my ideas. One of Mazzle's greatest strengths was the Mazzifier, and the large number of addons that Mazz included and supported. However, this also turned out to be a big weakness, as many of those addons are now long out of date, and most would go unused in any case. My feeling is that the new Mazzle, whatever it turns out to be, should be as lean as possible.

The mazzifier process had a lot of great features. You could quickly and easily choose to add castbars, bank and auction house mods, threat and damage meters, and so on. But almost all of that functionality related to addons that most endusers could pretty simply and easily download and install themselves. I think the new Mazzle should focus, at least initially, just on recreating the mazzle interface in its most basic form: selectable skins, setting up the 3d models, arranging the various UI elements such as health/power bars, icons such as PVP/rest indicators, text and other related things. The new version of DUF should help with this immensely assuming it's working at least fairly well. Perhaps an actionbar mod could be added as well, although really, those are easy enough to download and set up separately. Basically, the devs would be developing a "Mazzle Lite" version of Mazzle.

A lite version would be much easier to maintain over the long term, and end users would still have the flexibility to add and configure the addons they like, without Mazzle being cluttered by scores of addons they'd never use.

When deciding what should go or should not go into Mazzle, I guess I feel it comes down to this: Is the feature or addon you want to add essential to the look and functionality of Mazzle? If yes, then of course it should be added to Mazzle. But if it's the kind of thing and end user could download and configure without a great deal of trouble, it should be left out imo. Threat meters, raid frame mods, inventory mods, PVP mods, cast bar mods, and the like are great and all, but I would rather that Mazzle not be cluttered with that stuff, when what I think we're all really after is a basic UI framework to which we can add our favorite mods.

groove · 10-16-08, 12:38 PM

Another thought I had - I understand that one of the reasons why Mazzle was so popular was precisely because it did include so many addons, and I'm sure people would miss that if the vast majority of the addons were removed. Perhaps one way to help with this would be to create groups of addons related to a particular function or theme, and let end users download the groups they want. Something like a "MazzlePack". For example, we could group together a Raid MazzlePack that included oRA2, SRaidFrames, Omen, and other raid-related addons. You could do the same thing for PVP, or have an Interface pack that includes button facades, cast bars, etc. End users could probably put together their own packs of favorite mods that they could share with the community. That way, Mazzle users could download the basic version of Mazzle and then pick the groups of addons they're interested in. It'd be a convenient way to download and install several related addons in one go.

The drawback is that the end user would have to configure the addons without the aid of a Mazzifying process. However, many addons can now be easily accessed and configured in the new Addons tab in the WoW Interface menu, so that's probably not that big of an issue, I think.

Mixsae · 10-16-08, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by groove

I'll start with a couple of my ideas. One of Mazzle's greatest strengths was the Mazzifier, and the large number of addons that Mazz included and supported. However, this also turned out to be a big weakness, as many of those addons are now long out of date, and most would go unused in any case. My feeling is that the new Mazzle, whatever it turns out to be, should be as lean as possible.

The mazzifier process had a lot of great features. You could quickly and easily choose to add castbars, bank and auction house mods, threat and damage meters, and so on. But almost all of that functionality related to addons that most endusers could pretty simply and easily download and install themselves. I think the new Mazzle should focus, at least initially, just on recreating the mazzle interface in its most basic form: selectable skins, setting up the 3d models, arranging the various UI elements such as health/power bars, icons such as PVP/rest indicators, text and other related things. The new version of DUF should help with this immensely assuming it's working at least fairly well. Perhaps an actionbar mod could be added as well, although really, those are easy enough to download and set up separately. Basically, the devs would be developing a "Mazzle Lite" version of Mazzle.

A lite version would be much easier to maintain over the long term, and end users would still have the flexibility to add and configure the addons they like, without Mazzle being cluttered by scores of addons they'd never use.

When deciding what should go or should not go into Mazzle, I guess I feel it comes down to this: Is the feature or addon you want to add essential to the look and functionality of Mazzle? If yes, then of course it should be added to Mazzle. But if it's the kind of thing and end user could download and configure without a great deal of trouble, it should be left out imo. Threat meters, raid frame mods, inventory mods, PVP mods, cast bar mods, and the like are great and all, but I would rather that Mazzle not be cluttered with that stuff, when what I think we're all really after is a basic UI framework to which we can add our favorite mods.

As a MazzleUI user, I concur at least partially, with what you're saying. The "first thing" should be ensuring that the UI portion of Mazzle is stable and looks "the same".

However, one of the problems I have found is the old "I didn't know I could do that!". If the latest MazzleUI, for example, had not had Omen -- I would never have known it existed and really would never have looked for it. However, I can not tell you how useful that add-on has been for me (as a 'lock). There are (were?) probably things that I had in Mazzle that I never even knew I had...and will miss in whatever I end up taking.

Maybe a compromise is in order; obviously, getting Mazzle working like it should is first priority. Perhaps, though, once that is worked out there could be an "Mazzle installation" type of thing that could be written that would allow you to include/exclude whatever "packages" you like...and the Mazzifier could know what packages are loaded and present display options for you? I'm not sure, of course, if any of this is possible (it appears to be possible in LUA...not so sure about Warcraft's flavour of it)...but it would be a "nice to have"...

Just my .02 (.001 with inflation and the market crash)...

alayane · 10-16-08, 12:51 PM

While i would agree with you general idea of making a "Mazzle Lite" some things that you mentioned taking out are rather integral to making mazzle look and feel like it did. The customizable raid frames in particular made mazzle still feel like itself when raiding, with out the those frames built in you might not have the ability of easily setting them up as an end user. The same thing goes for the bag mods and the cast bars and so on. As of right now Mazzle Core does what you describe, it allows add-ons, that mazzle was made to use, be auto configured. Currently there are only a few dependencies that mazzle can't run with out. One such dependence is Bongos. A large chunk of the other add-ons are fluff that have had configurations built into the core. What needs to be done right now as far as mazzle goes is fixing the core and its dependencies. All the rest can be downloaded individually for the most part.

groove · 10-16-08, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by alayane

While i would agree with you general idea of making a "Mazzle Lite" some things that you mentioned taking out are rather integral to making mazzle look and feel like it did. The customizable raid frames in particular made mazzle still feel like itself when raiding, with out the those frames built in you might not have the ability of easily setting them up as an end user. The same thing goes for the bag mods and the cast bars and so on.

This goes back to my "Is the feature you want to add essential to the look and feel of Mazzle?" question. If it's essential, whether it's raid frames or whatnot, then yeah it'll have to be included. I'll be the first to admit I don't know exactly which addons are ultimately essential and which are frills. I trust that the devs will filter that out. I don't see how bag mods and cast bars would be essential though. As separate downloads, they're not that hard to set up outside of Mazzle are they? Would that sort of thing really need to be included? /shrug, don't know.

Edit: now that I think about it, I suppose a bag fix of some sort would be necessary so that they don't overlap the Mazz skin huh? :P

cassac · 10-16-08, 01:17 PM

I am not a coder or an add-on master by any means, but I have been keeping track of several of the threads going on and am going to add my say. I have been using MazzleUI since right around the launch of BC and have died each time alittle bit when it died and praised people when they got this little masterpiece working again. Going through the Dev thread I see that they are looking at building a new UI using Mazzle as a base for it. I think that this is a great idea. It makes no sense to continue to patch up a UI that is dependent upon out-dated and non-supported add-ons. I also like the sound of a "MazzleUI Lite", easy to maintain and the ability to customize the add-ons to your needs and likes. The only problem with this, is will it be able to be modified to where it will work with the huge amount of add-ons out there. One of the reasons I like Mazzle so much was that it set everything up for you. That can't be beat.

Anyways, I just hope that a solution is found because I will not play WoW without MazzleUI.

Mylandroth · 10-16-08, 01:21 PM

I think the reason I love Mazzle is because there's a place for everything. If you lose the Mazzification process for a lot of addons, they'll simply clutter the screen. Some things aren't really necessary to Mazzify. Omen and Recount for example. But a lot of the elements that go into Mazzle have to be Mazzified in order to look halfway decent on a UI like this, especially at the tiny scale Mazzle UI uses.

I for one have become so dependent on Mazzle that I can't play this game without it. TBH, if Mazzle lost most of the Mazzification features it would really turn me off on this UI. The reason I love it so much is because in like 10 clicks, I can take a character that has nothing for a UI, and make it wonderful! I would die without that feature. =( However, if it isn't in the cards to allow us to Mazzify like that, I would understand too. It's the organizational aspect of Mazzle I've come to love so much. If I can't get organized in a few clicks, I would go crazy with my addon folder containing like... over 300 mods.

alayane · 10-16-08, 01:30 PM

i apologize if my first post didn't make it clear, before mazzlefizz left he set up something called mazzle core 1.11. When you download mazzle you download that and a supported add-ons pack. Technically the only thing you need to run mazzle is the core. All the core consists of is the mazzle ui itself, the modified bongos, and the modified gfxtoggle2 although i think DUF is a dependence i could be wrong. The add-on pack consists of add-on that the mazzifier has been set up to use and contains settings for so that when they load you as a user don't need to do anything. All that really needs to be done is fix the mazzle core (not sure how much work is involved in that) and update the add-ons in the supported add-ons folder. If needed, old add-ons that don't work anymore can be removed from the mazzifier and replaced with new ones(also not sure how much work is involved).

Rederon · 10-17-08, 04:11 PM

I'd like to see some integration of some of the newer class mods, such as Pally Power which I don't believe is in the last rendition of Mazzle.

I also think as a community we should support starting from scratch. As much as I love this mod and as much respect I have for Mazz, without him playing and actively supporting the project it should die or be handed over. Waiting for permission is a huge bottleneck in keeping this project updated. One example is the fact that there are no 3.0.2 stickies. All the stickies are for a problem that is long fixed and now obsolete. 4 days without one sticky dedicated to fixing the issue is far too long. This is simple forum moderation, that is if one has the time.

Maybe as a community we can all come together to buy the rights to the code.

LadySilverwolf · 10-17-08, 10:27 PM

A possible suggestion although it would mean 'more' downloads.

Sub-package stuff for PvP, PvE, and finally endgame Kara's, and whatever else WotLK will offer. Look at it this way for your toons : ... a 'build-up' of your addons as your Toons get higher in lvl.

Hope that makes sense.

Spiffums · 10-21-08, 05:30 PM

If you all end up replacing bongos with Dominoes, I would like to see the availability of all action bars. My only grip with Mazzy was that some of the pre set bars didn't give you all the bars like the Warlock settings did.

I also am in favor of the add on packs. I think if we keep it simple and just get in the installer the UI elements that we can add whatever else we need.

Aequi · 10-22-08, 01:33 AM

Just hope that DrDamage will work with Dominos, however atm. i'm waiting on DrDamage to update...

ValorianX · 10-22-08, 06:58 PM

I would like to see all the moves actually in the auto sets that mazzle inputs for you. On my warrior I always had to put rampage and shield reflect on my bar in a extra button spots every time I respecced.

Yhor · 02-02-09, 10:45 PM

I know this MIGHT look like a necro, but with the word being there is someone who has maybe "fixed" the Mazzifier... I hope they'll look at some of the things we want to stay the same, or change.

I liked that there were options with MazzleUI. Such as DBM OR BigWigs, Recount OR Damage Meter, a little information OR tons of it. To me, that's what the Mazzifier was all about, choices.

I know there are several addons that aren't available anymore, I am curious about the bar mod choice, unit frames (any word on duf memory leak?), among others. Hopefully we can start this back into discussion to get some possible info and share our thoughts as well.

kilth2 · 02-03-09, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Yhor

I know this MIGHT look like a necro, but with the word being there is someone who has maybe "fixed" the Mazzifier... :

Who fixed the mazzifier? I have been trying to be up to date and I haven't seen anyone post on the Mazzifier. If thats fixed soon it should be downloadable or.......?

Yhor · 02-03-09, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by kilth2

Who fixed the mazzifier? I have been trying to be up to date and I haven't seen anyone post on the Mazzifier. If thats fixed soon it should be downloadable or.......?

No, I don't think it should be "open" (downloadable) until the major issues are optimized. Right now there's no point in releasing a ui that isn't as functional as one of the copies floating around that were meant to hold people over until this one is optimized.

I only bumped this thread with the hope that people who want to give feedback in terms of function and expectations (ie, addons and deal breakers) will do so now so there won't be as many questions later as to why something was or was not included.

twobits · 02-07-09, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Yhor

I liked that there were options with MazzleUI. Such as DBM OR BigWigs, Recount OR Damage Meter, a little information OR tons of it. To me, that's what the Mazzifier was all about, choices.

I know there are several addons that aren't available anymore, I am curious about the bar mod choice, unit frames (any word on duf memory leak?), among others. Hopefully we can start this back into discussion to get some possible info and share our thoughts as well.

Well, most of the addons it had, should be able to be put back into it as long as they have 3.0 updates. Not sure all of them makes sense to do so though as some also are on life support even with some 3.0 patches done to them. Don't think I can past html into my messages here, so I will just link to a list of addons I am using ( http://twobits.36bit.com/maz_addons.html ), with these I think I have a good amount of the functionality down for what was in the last mazzle release.

Originally Posted by kilth2

Who fixed the mazzifier? I have been trying to be up to date and I haven't seen anyone post on the Mazzifier. If thats fixed soon it should be downloadable or.......?

I think a couple of people have fixed it now that are known of at least.
Really that is just a first step.

kilth2 · 02-07-09, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by twobits

Well, most of the addons it had, should be able to be put back into it as long as they have 3.0 updates. Not sure all of them makes sense to do so though as some also are on life support even with some 3.0 patches done to them. Don't think I can past html into my messages here, so I will just link to a list of addons I am using ( http://twobits.36bit.com/maz_addons.html ), with these I think I have a good amount of the functionality down for what was in the last mazzle release.

I think a couple of people have fixed it now that are known of at least.
Really that is just a first step.

so how long you figure?

spiritwulf · 02-08-09, 04:07 AM

Forget MazzleUI. Its not likely to be making a comeback unless Mazzle comes back to wow and that has about a 1% probability. I loved this UI and am of the opinion that when it was still being supported by Mazzle that there was and, if it was still working, would be THE best UI ever to date.

However I dont think anyone out there is seriously working on it or has the drive and ability to do so. It is simply to much Mazzles baby and going through everything and trying to figure out how the UI works and fixing it is beyond most people.

I strongly recomend moving onto a new UI. My personal preference atm is nUI. Check it out.