WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[JediExcel]

Originally Posted by Republic Look, it's as simple as this... If you need to leech off larger hosts in order for your application to run, you are nothing more than a parasite, regardless of whether or not your application is a "superior" product. The fact you are positioning yourself as a leech tells people you want to talk the talk without walking the walk. Put your damned money where your mouth is and pay for your own bandwidth. Get author's permission to host their files, abide by their permissions, and serve your own application. If your product is such a great application, it should be able to stand on its own, without regard for anyone's opinion or policy at WoW Interface, Curse, or some other guy's website. If it's dodgy and you need to rely on technicalities for success, you probably don't deserve that success and you get what you deserve. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing things. WoW Matrix, in my opinion, seems like it's being run by a bunch of 14 yr olds with good ideas but who haven't a clue how to be professional in their approach to the community. Bottom line - borrowing someone's bandwidth for your own purposes is highly unprofessional and in some cases, can even be criminal. I couldn't care less to use an application that is nothing more than a parasite, regardless of whether or not it has its own merits. Anyone who has ever hosted or sold bandwidth to website owners hates applications like this. Ask around. Leechers are one of the primary causes of driving up the costs of site hosting, maintenance, etc. WoW Interface is one of the only websites I know of in all of gaming that makes consistently appropriate choices while implementing consistently proper policies and changes. Curse, and a few others also do a good job, but I don't think any are as professionally maintained as this one. You can criticize policy all you want. You guys who may (or may not be) associated with WoW Matrix should take away one thing from this (or any other relevant) discussion, and that is - become a stand-alone product. Get with authors, get permission, rent out your own file servers, pump your application from your own bandwidth. If you truly want to be the "superior" product you claim to be, man up and be just that. Don't come around parts like this being a blowhard because people here protect their own. You have no right to do so. Go leech from yourself. Leave the legitimate community alone. It is my opinion that it's a bit late to garner the support of most authors though. I think this has been approached entirely wrong and very immaturely. Anyway, food for thought.

Well put.

All very valid points to be sure. I think the problem people have is 1) they don't know the issues and 2) they know what worked in the past.

But these kind of explanations need to go on a lot of the WoW site forums to explain it to the people who don't get it. Just posted here, you're just preaching to the choir.

I used to use WM. After hearing the explanations here, i will certainly think twice about using it again, even if they manage a work around.

As a side note, is it an issue if I use the WM to track what addons I have to follow the link to the proper page to manually download the addon, is that a bad thing still? Sorry if it is a stupidly obvious question, but the entire issue is new to me.

[blinked]

My first time posting here since I lurk forums a lot.

I SUPPORT CURSE AND WOWI 100% in this matter.

It is their site, their bandwidth. Therefore, it is their choice how it is accessed. People who are **** about being customers doesn't matter because if you were using WM you weren't WoWI or curse's customer in first place.

I will quote something from wow forums to lighten the mood
"Back in my day we didn't have these fancy smashy things like auto updaters, we had to go and manually download/update our mods.

Whippersnappers nowadays are so spoiled. "

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by JediExcel Seems to me the issue for most of those pissed at Curse and WoWInterface is that they are blocking an application which does the job well in updating.

Yes, it's the exact same thing that happened when WAU was discontinued. WoWI and Curse are both working to make their updaters better. They know that WM was better and that's why users went to it, but they also have to recoup bandwidth costs, which WM did NOT. Have faith that they are working to make their updaters better, but the WM problem had to be fixed, and that was a much higher priority.

In the mean time, you can do your part by only updating broken addons on patch weeks, and if you want your fix of updating but don't want to run the sites' apps, use their favorites trackers to get email updates when an addon use use has an update.

[Republic]

Originally Posted by bennykurns So the new way to do things is to use the official addon updating programs provided by Curse and WoWInterface. Too bad they suck ass. Maybe you guy should consider working WITH the WoWMatrix team instead of against them?

Why? The WoWMatrix team hasn't worked with the community as best I can tell, why now should the community turn around and work with them?

The way I see it, the WoWMatrix team should be thankful sites like WoWInterface aren't coming after them with criminal charges. Bandwidth leeching is considered theft and in many cases, can be legally actionable. Here we have a case of an entire application designed to leech bandwidth. I'd have a field day with it if I were running the sites being ripped off.

In my opinion, WoWMatrix should shut their mouth and go home. They should also consider themselves lucky they don't have charges being brought against them. Some of us out here would do a LITTLE more than simply block your application. I guarantee that.

[Tuhljin]

Originally Posted by WiredLain So if I were to use AdBlock I'd be stealing?

Food for thought. (And no, I don't plan on following up. Arguing morality on the Internet is generally a wasted effort, and this topic is explosive enough without that tangent.)

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by JediExcel But these kind of explanations need to go on a lot of the WoW site forums to explain it to the people who don't get it.

Frankly, the people that don't "get it" aren't going to because they don't WANT to. They go to the forums or wowins to to have their ***** and then move on. They aren't interested in understanding the situation and certainly aren't looking to change their views on the matter. The post Cair made on the forum (exactly the same one made here) was pretty clear as to the intents, and look at wowins's post, they said that the block was made to promote the official updaters, which it WAS NOT. Only a passing reference to the updaters was made at the end of Cair's post, for those users that might be interested.

TLDR version: there's no reason to try to persuade the *****ers, all hope is lost on them

[Tristanian]

The thing that many people are conveniently missing is that WM actually parses the html page from the site and sniffs the link from it to download said addon, so they are essentially downloading the web page and the addon. Moreover, seems that no one has actually taken the time to read Seerah's post (I'm tempted to say most posts but what the hell). The frequency of updates is just as important when it comes to bandwidth, especially if the parsing mechanism is flawed and forces you to update an addon that is already in the latest version. Bandwidth usage going down as much as 50% is no random figure. It's one thing having a few thousand users hammering the "update all" button and an entirely different thing having the same amount manually downloading. It's a practical difference for the most part.

Moreover, people continue to assume too much, such as that every single user is running FF with NoScript/Ad Blocker. You'd be surprised to find out how many they don't.

Let's touch functionality as well. The fact that client-wise WM offered a good updater isn't as important as the fact that it has become common sense it seems that an updater is mandatory, if you are to have any chance for your UI not to break. This was a misconception that WAU encouraged up to a point that it was considered to be a widely accepted, standard practice. In reality, people do not require every single update in the book, especially when it doesn't directly affect them (e.g. localization update for the lost tribe in Amazon). From that point of view, I personally consider WAU, as the worst single mistake in the entire history of this community. The "lazier" among you will not agree and probably flame me for this but in all honesty, I've seen it happen, first on WoWAce, then elsewhere, as soon as the plug was pulled. It was like trying to detox a junkie. The monster had grown so much that even the people originally responsible for the development backed out, mostly disappointed by user feedback and the ever-growing demands of the self-entitled userbase.


Then I keep hearing about people using as much as 200 addons. In all honesty I cannot possibly fathom how or why any single user requires 200 addons to get a decent working UI (including running disembedded which users should *not* be doing in the first place). There is no way in hell you can convince me that ALL of those addons are absolutely required or that half of them are being used, half the time (unless we are talking about modules or plugins, even then its going overboard). But let's agree for arguments sake that all of those addons are required. Is it also required to have every single one of them updated, "just in case", once a year, a user might require feature X in addon Y ? My point is, some users have grown accustomed to just click "install" on an updater, as a fire and forget solution, without thinking.


Which brings us to the next, much debated issue. Why doesn't Curse or WoWI offer an updater with an equivalent functionality to WM ? Though this has been answered already, I'll try a recap. Let's get the obvious out of the way. People that are hoping for a centralized site or repository where all addons are being hosted and maintained, are simply living in a dream world. First of all, in order to do that, you would have to convince most authors to agree on their work being hosted there (good luck with that for several reasons I'm not gonna bother mentioning). Secondly, you would require a "unified" updater to pull from the repositories and while it was in the best interest of both Curse and WoWI to side on shutting down WM, people have to accept the simple truth, that when all has been said and done, both of these sites are actually competitors, so such an "Alliance" is very unlikely to occur on that front. A unified "API" or plugins however, is an idea that has merit and to the best of my knowledge such an option is already in the works.

That being said, It's no real secret that Curse has been struggling with their updater for quite some time, after WAU became redundant. A lot of people back then (myself included) had criticized the proposed design (still in beta), but things went on regardless, as no other viable solution was in sight at the time and costs were hurting Curse. From that time a lot has changed and while the client right now has nothing to do with its initial incarnation, there are obviously a lot of things that can be done better. This is actually a chance for people to offer constructive criticism, instead of issuing decrees of how bad it is, how it didn't get us a new girl to bed or w/e. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Is the client clunky, inconvenient, buggy and intrusive ? Post about it, offer suggestions and who knows, you may actually get what you wish for.

On a similar note, WoWI has had problems speeding up their own process of getting a viable updater out, simply because they had to rely on volunteer work. There is nothing secret or complicated about this, there is no elaborate scheme to "cheat" users or intentionally hurt them, it's just the way things are. If you think you can contribute or have some experience that can speed this process up, there is no one stopping you giving these guys a hand.

If you still feel that taking the easy way out and catering to a 3rd party updater, whose creators are not contributing anything to the actual community but rather only gaining without giving anything back, or you just feel that WoWI and Curse are still trying to intentionally charge you/deceive you/hurt you, or you just don't care as long as you get your automated updates from *anywhere* and frak authors and websites, then what can I say. You are beyond help and/or hope and wish you luck in your future endeavors.

[Seerah]

For all of your one stop shopping needs!

(I forgot to mention this earlier. Sorry, Fin. )

http://fin.instinct.org/wowmods/

Why is this okay? Because it's just a glorified/compiled RSS feed. It is using the data that the addon sites give permission to use, and it doesn't scrape the addon sites. Find a mod you want to download, and you go straight to that download page to do it yourself.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Republic Why? The WoWMatrix team hasn't worked with the community as best I can tell, why now should the community turn around and work with them?

An attempt (pathetic as it was) was made with Curse, WM never talked to WoWI. They don't want to work with the sites because it would have bitten into their revenue stream, it may have even completely consumed it given how much bandwidth has dropped on the sites today.

Curse and WoWI just need to take what lessons in UI design they can from WM and apply it to their own updaters.

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by bennykurns Maybe you guy should consider working WITH the WoWMatrix team instead of against them?

Maybe you should consider manually updating your addons.

[Republic]

Originally Posted by WiredLain So if I were to use AdBlock I'd be stealing?

No. A website user is no more obligated to view ads than a tv viewer is to sit and watch every commercial. Advertising agreements with website content are simply not written in this perspective. Period.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Republic No. A website user is no more obligated to view ads than a tv viewer is to sit and watch every commercial. Advertising agreements with website content are simply not written in this perspective. Period.

There will always be a portion of your users that block ads, just as there will always be a portion that steal paid content. People that realize this and plan their stuff around the portion that WILL see the ads are the ones that do well. People that live in denial of this, or spend all their money fighting it are the ones that don't do so well. I love the excuse they tell people, "it keeps the honest people honest". Such a line of tauren****.

[Zirco]

Originally Posted by WiredLain So if I were to use AdBlock I'd be stealing?

WiredLain,
Just curious. How would you recommend that WowInterace and Curse generate revenue to pay their bills?

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Zirco WiredLain, Just curious. How would you recommend that WowInterace and Curse generate revenue to pay their bills?

How about running a very professional website which obviously has the community's best interests at the forefront? That gets people like ME to support them.

[Zirco]

Originally Posted by Republic How about running a very professional website which obviously has the community's best interests at the forefront? That gets people like ME to support them.

So in your case, you're willing to pay WowInterface directly.

I'm still curious how WiredLain would recommend that they generate revenue.

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Tekkub There will always be a portion of your users that block ads, just as there will always be a portion that steal paid content. People that realize this and plan their stuff around the portion that WILL see the ads are the ones that do well. People that live in denial of this, or spend all their money fighting it are the ones that don't do so well. I love the excuse they tell people, "it keeps the honest people honest". Such a line of tauren****.

The blocking of ads has nothing to do with sites serving ads, and thus being paid ad revenue. I'm not sure I follow your point.

ESPN still has ad revenue whether or not you and I get up for a snack when we see Billy Mays come on during timeouts of the Celtics/Cavaliers game. Know what I mean?

[Arcadian Del Sol]

Originally Posted by Zirco WiredLain, Just curious. How would you recommend that WowInterace and Curse generate revenue to pay their bills?

Im curious to know whether or not you fast forward through commercials when watching TV shows you've recorded.

[JediExcel]

Originally Posted by Tekkub Frankly, the people that don't "get it" aren't going to because they don't WANT to. They go to the forums or wowins to to have their ***** and then move on. They aren't interested in understanding the situation and certainly aren't looking to change their views on the matter. The post Cair made on the forum (exactly the same one made here) was pretty clear as to the intents, and look at wowins's post, they said that the block was made to promote the official updaters, which it WAS NOT. Only a passing reference to the updaters was made at the end of Cair's post, for those users that might be interested. TLDR version: there's no reason to try to persuade the *****ers, all hope is lost on them

Well, *I* was one of the *****ers before I came here and educated myself, sad to say. Those of us who don't understand the tech issues might not see what is pretty obvious to you.

I don't remember seeing on WoWInsider what was said here. I do remember the guy from Curse who said "Use our new updater," and ignored the comments from those who said "We did, and it is garbage."

Of course there will always be the immature whiners who want instant gratification. Not all of us are though. From coming here, I at least learned what the problems are with WM. I'll keep my eyes peeled for an acceptable updater program and go back to manual until then.

Hell, maybe if I make a ghost image of my drive, I might even try the Curse client.

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by Zirco So in your case, you're willing to pay WowInterface directly.

I would. It would definitely be easier than giving it to Allakhazam just so I can log on add free over here. Alla was definitely useful when I played EQ. Not so much now that I don't.

[Stormlor]

I agree with both sides. As a Network Admin its actually both the faults of WOWI and Curse for allowing WOWM to come in.

1 ) You (WOWI for example) should of your systems being monitored closer. This shows that your Network Admins are lazy as hell. As soon as something came into your network and you did your research and found it came from WOWM you should of blocked no questions asked, no posts. Its their responsibility not yours because they found an exploit in your network.

2 ) What WOWM is doing is basically hacking into domain, sees and updated addon and then downloads it from the source to the user pain free, ad free. If you press criminal charges against them it would be a good idea as basically they did break the law by hacking into your site. Bandwidth has nothing to do with this. If you guys can't afford the bandwidth then thats your issue not WOWM.

3 ) WOWM did not use as much "resources" as other clients ex: Curse. I say "resources" because everything on a network that is used is a resource. That includes bandwidth, storage, memory, and processing power. The "fake" admins here are strongly suggest using another client like their own which does not work. I'm ok with updating via Curse Client or WOWI Manager, but if your going to provide something to your customer and your customers find it doesn't work, then that looks bad on you as bad business practices. I call the admins here "fake" because honestly they know this site is just a portal to other hosting sites. They have no idea how their network infrastructure actually runs because if they did they would of blocked the ports that were being used.

Lastly I think this is where some sites like WOWI are all about money, and not about the community. Your site has just as much data as other big sites. You guys should of taken the time to research what ports WOWM is using, and blocked them right away. No questions asked, put it in your SOP document and your good. This is why I say its your fault just as much as WOWM. You guys LET them exploit you, now all your customers are angry at you because of it. This is standard in most businesses. This is why you should of done this as soon as you heard about it. WOWM has been running for approx a year or so. Someone should of seen this then, not on April 14 when 3.1 comes and everybody are like wolves trying to get their addons updated.