Quantcast @ Cairren, WoWI and the nUI community... - WoWInterface
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12-16-13, 05:55 AM   #1
spiel2001
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@ Cairren, WoWI and the nUI community...

BS.

I'm confounded by this reaction.

1) I am still distributing nUI for free. Both here and at Curse
2) even if I did take it private, I still offer people three ways to get nUI for free.
3) I *just* openly made the offer to reconsider my stance and keep nUI public here: http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=48666

I am *NOT* in violation of Blizzard's policy. nUI *IS* still freely available.

This is the reaction I get? I offer to donate everything about nUI if the community will show some support and instead I get shut down.

Do as you may. I have no control over what you choose to do. I have long appreciated the forum you gave me here at WoWI and I regret its come to this. I think you're dead wrong, but that's your call to make.

All the same, I wish you all best best. I'm sorry it came to this. It didn't have to.
__________________

What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
My brush has two colors, 1 and 0, and my canvas is made of silicon.



Official nUI Web Site: http://www.nUIaddon.com
Official nUI Support Forum: http://forums.nUIaddon.com
My day job: http://www.presidio.com/

Last edited by spiel2001 : 12-16-13 at 06:03 AM.
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12-16-13, 10:09 AM   #2
spiel2001
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I'd like to follow up with a final statement...

WoWInterface.com and the rest of the MMOUI sites would not exists were it not for the sweat equity and passion of the addon authors who create the addons that this web site and others like it distribute.

Every single penny of advertisement revenue and every single donation these sites generates for their owners is created on the backs of the addon authors who contribute their work product to these sites. Every cent of profit these sites earn, every penny of every paycheck paid to every employee of these sites was earned as a direct result of the work product of the authors who provide the addons you distribute.

I guarantee you that every check paid to the staff of these sites is larger than the sum of money all of the addons authors on these sites, combined, make in the same period.

Similarly, nearly every user interface enhancement that has been made to World of Warcraft since its vanilla days was, at one time or another, the idea of an addon author. Countless WoW players play this game with addons because it enhances their game experience. Many would not play the game were it not for those addons. Blizzard, too, has profited greatly from the ideas, the creativity and the community the addon authors have created.

Yet, the addon authors are prohibited from profiting from their work in a fair market. Both Blizzard and the sites such as WoWI profit from our labors while simultaneously demanding that we give everything of our efforts away without even the right to control who uses our software or the right to ask for fair compensation for our effort.

When WoWI removes all advertisements from its sites, and is only permitted to ask for donations on Blizzard's web site, I will accept their support for the model they back addon authors having to adhere to. When Blizzard removes the monthly fee for World of Warcraft and only advertises for donations on Microsoft's web site, I will accept their admonition that I am not allowed to seek compensation for my time and effort.

If I should be happy doing this for no other reason than my ego, then so too should WoW Interface and Blizzard. Of course, neither does.

nUI has nearly 800,000 downloads here on WoWI. There are over 30,000 posts in its forums with who knows how many imprints over the years that nUI has been hosted here. There are over 36,000 people in the "nUI+ User Group" on this site and who knows how many others who use nUI without being a part of that group. nUI has profited WoWI greatly over the years and I have always been respectful of both WoWI and the user base.

To be singled out for telling the truth that there's a growing number of abusive asshats in the gamer community and banished for having done so is pathetic. I said nothing of the good people of this community, the nUI community or gaming in general. I spoke directly to those who are rude, crude and abusive... and to imply that they don't exist is to delude yourself.

Unless and until good people are willing to stand up to those who would abuse others, we are doomed to decay. I will not be a part of that.

Frankly, I say emphatically that Blizzard and WoWI both are being two faced and hypocritical in the extreme. While simultaneously seeking to make it as difficult as possible for addon authors to freely market their work, they profit from it. While chastising me for my (paraphrasing) "bad behavior" they are coddling and perpetuating the bad behavior of others.

As much as I'm being told that I should have to suck it up and accept the rude behavior of certain elements of they user community so that the silent "good users" are not being punished, they are doing the exact same thing... WoWI closing these forums and Blizzard threatening to block nUI because of "rule violations" (again paraphrasing) punishes all of the good nUI users because of the "bad behavior" of one person.

Pot meet kettle.

So be it. WoWI has made up its mind. Blizzard will do what Blizzard's going to do. I have no control over it. In spite of the fact that I uploaded free copies to both WoWI and Curse not two days ago, in spite of the fact that I have said time and time again that there are several ways for people to get nUI for free and in spite of the fact that I have repeatedly stated that my only intent was to limit the access to nUI from people who are abusive to me, this is the result.

I can do nothing about that.
__________________

What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
My brush has two colors, 1 and 0, and my canvas is made of silicon.



Official nUI Web Site: http://www.nUIaddon.com
Official nUI Support Forum: http://forums.nUIaddon.com
My day job: http://www.presidio.com/

Last edited by spiel2001 : 12-16-13 at 10:46 AM.
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12-16-13, 12:43 PM   #3
laisydayla
A Defias Bandit
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2
Brokenhearted

Let me go on record as one who has played WoW since the vanilla days and has seen a HUGE shift in game experience over the years. When I first started playing WoW, the community was one of friendship and helping one another achieve success. Teamwork was the name of the game. You built friendships, you leveled your character and you joined guilds. Joining a guild created a sense of community that has been lost over the years. When new raids came out, we all raided in BG gear, because crafted epics were still considered quality gear at that time (another thing that has been changed that I think takes away from the community of the game) and none of us could afford crafted gear and we hadnt gotten our raiding epics yet so we used BG gear, affectionately termed "ghetto epics." Since WoW has grown in popularity, two major changes have occurred that, in my opinion, have destroyed the game. The first was the loss of community. When the servers were opened up the need to join a guild really became a thing of the past because people can now raid LFG their entire playing career and never really need a guild. That destroyed something that was key to WoW being a good game. The other thing that happened was the increase of children playing the game. Vanilla days consisted of a lot more adults playing than kids and over the last 5 - 6 years, that has changed greatly and now there are a lot more kids playing. Modern children live a life of privilege that those of us over 30 cannot comprehend and they have no values, morals or character. As a result, they treat people with absolutely no respect and that is now rampant across the community of WoW and has slowly chipped away at the sense of community and friendship that was so prevalent in vanilla days and now with the LFG change, that community has been obliterated. Unfortunately, Scott has gotten caught up in that change simply by trying to stand up for himself, as is his right by the way, and the result has been heartbreaking to watch as one who has supported his efforts both morally and from time to time financially over the years. All Scott has tried to do is attempt to maintain that sense of community that was once so prevalent in the game of WoW within his own environment of development and he has been called on the carpet for it as though he had thrown a temper tantrum, picked up his toys and gone home, which he has NOT done!! I have read every email he has written since this entire ridiculousness got started and he has been very clear, very concise and very professional the entire time. He has not demanded everyone pay for his addon, (which is ALSO his right, I might add!!) he has simply asked that those who have supported his efforts in the past and been a positive force in the development life of nUI sign up for a new list so that he can sort the wheat from the chaff.

Have any one of you people who have ripped Scott's heart open considered the vast amount of time and effort Scott has freely given over the last eight years? People make good money doing what he does for FREE!! In any other realm of society, he would be charging good money to PROFIT for his efforts because as a developer, that is his right, it's his product that he developed on his own!! Yet by standing up for himself he has apparently committed the cardinal sin in this community and he hasnt even hinted that he will be charging for nUI by moving it over to a private forum. In fact, he has offered that any donations that are made be given over to a charity organization!! I think everyone at Blizzard and at WOWI and Curse owe Scott and other developers like him a HUGE debt of gratitude because if it were not for developers like Scott, WOWI and Curse wouldnt even exist, but instead of supporting him, you have chosen to cut him out of the community all together. I am appalled by the reaction of this site. I used to think this site was the best addon site there was. I will rethink that should I ever return to playing WoW in the future, which at this point I'm not sure I will do since it seems the community has only gotten worse since I left last year.

If I were Scott, I'd simply walk away and not deal with this emotional deluge anymore and take my 36,000 users with me. But he has not done that, he has continued to try to work through the misunderstandings and problems to receive even more misunderstanding and abuse. This site has lost my support and I hope the other users of nUI that have been there over the years walk away from WOWI as well.
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12-16-13, 12:59 PM   #4
Doubleosix
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7
nUI sadness

It is so sad to see that such a war can start over nothing. To me nUI has been a must have from the first appearance. The man did a wonderful job of it at a time when he was down and out. He has never required payment for this add on, and I feel just like any body else, he would like a few bucks for a job well done, he would also like some return for his effort. Even though one can understand that WOW does not want people riding on their coat tails, or extorting the players, I can not see why it is such a big deal if some one does receive a few bucks. This whole thing is a series of misunderstandings and a couple of rude and ungrateful people mouthing off.

If you do not like him and his opinions, leave, you are free to do so. If you like him and his work, stay. Throw a few bucks his way, say thank you and go play WOW.
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12-16-13, 12:59 PM   #5
chuckcxr
A Defias Bandit
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2
Total Ignorance?

How illiterate or ignorant are some of these clowns???
Spiel's said it's still going to have FREE access still for months now and even uploaded updates a couple days ago.
If you're too lazy to write him a quick 10 second email for access, then you don't deserve the add-on that he's slaved away at for years and is hands down one of the most comprehensive and great to use adding available, and I've tried me all and been playing since vanilla.

And either Cairenn is just blunder-fully ignorant or just flat out lying, their thread is completely untrue.
There are multiple ways to get F
REE access to the add-on still, that only take a few seconds, including wow matrix and curse. In either case Cairenn's blind and irrational jump to false judgment is extremely unprofessional and not what you'd hope to see from an admin.
It just simply isn't true.
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12-16-13, 01:06 PM   #6
Dridzt
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Don't presume to speak for authors in general, you definitely don't speak for me and I'll leave it at that for now.
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12-16-13, 01:16 PM   #7
Marauder_IIc
A Fallenroot Satyr
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by laisydayla View Post
Let me go on record as one who has played WoW since the vanilla days and has seen a HUGE shift in game experience over the years. When I first started playing WoW, the community was one of friendship and helping one another achieve success. Teamwork was the name of the game. You built friendships, you leveled your character and you joined guilds. Joining a guild created a sense of community that has been lost over the years. When new raids came out, we all raided in BG gear, because crafted epics were still considered quality gear at that time (another thing that has been changed that I think takes away from the community of the game) and none of us could afford crafted gear and we hadnt gotten our raiding epics yet so we used BG gear, affectionately termed "ghetto epics." Since WoW has grown in popularity, two major changes have occurred that, in my opinion, have destroyed the game. The first was the loss of community. When the servers were opened up the need to join a guild really became a thing of the past because people can now raid LFG their entire playing career and never really need a guild. That destroyed something that was key to WoW being a good game. The other thing that happened was the increase of children playing the game. Vanilla days consisted of a lot more adults playing than kids and over the last 5 - 6 years, that has changed greatly and now there are a lot more kids playing. Modern children live a life of privilege that those of us over 30 cannot comprehend and they have no values, morals or character. As a result, they treat people with absolutely no respect and that is now rampant across the community of WoW and has slowly chipped away at the sense of community and friendship that was so prevalent in vanilla days and now with the LFG change, that community has been obliterated. Unfortunately, Scott has gotten caught up in that change simply by trying to stand up for himself, as is his right by the way, and the result has been heartbreaking to watch as one who has supported his efforts both morally and from time to time financially over the years. All Scott has tried to do is attempt to maintain that sense of community that was once so prevalent in the game of WoW within his own environment of development and he has been called on the carpet for it as though he had thrown a temper tantrum, picked up his toys and gone home, which he has NOT done!! I have read every email he has written since this entire ridiculousness got started and he has been very clear, very concise and very professional the entire time. He has not demanded everyone pay for his addon, (which is ALSO his right, I might add!!) he has simply asked that those who have supported his efforts in the past and been a positive force in the development life of nUI sign up for a new list so that he can sort the wheat from the chaff.
^^^^^^ THIS!
This is the problem IMHO. I see it all the time in every area, not just gaming. But when every kid (talking maturity, not chronological age) has no concern of any sort of repurcussion, AND a soap box to stand on to scream obsenities from in complete anonimity this crap happens. READ WHAT THE MAN SAYS, you can still get it for FREE.
Aside form that, laisydayla is completely correct about the destruction of community. The children have REALLY dragged things down, also, that the game has become an order of magnitude easier over the years doesn't help that either. I still play, just not with the gusto I used to. It doesn't have the draw it used to as the challenge has diminished, the options have been reduced, AND the volume of screaming children has been increased. And this kind of behavior to someone who offers their work for free is just a byproduct of what Blizzard has done so far and the unfortunate turn society is taking.

Sad.... just sad.
Scott, myself and MANY others in the community are still behind you.
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12-16-13, 01:56 PM   #8
Haleth
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Regardless of your opinion on this matter, please keep it civil and refrain from insulting others (that includes calling names) over subjects like these. There's no need for that and it's counter-productive.

Last edited by Haleth : 12-16-13 at 01:58 PM.
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12-16-13, 02:01 PM   #9
spiel2001
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Originally Posted by Haleth View Post
Regardless of your opinion on this matter, please keep it civil and refrain from insulting others (that includes calling names) over subjects like these. There's no need for that and it's counter-productive.
This ^

This conversation is, in large part, about being civil and standing up against those who are not. Please be respectful of that.
__________________

What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
My brush has two colors, 1 and 0, and my canvas is made of silicon.



Official nUI Web Site: http://www.nUIaddon.com
Official nUI Support Forum: http://forums.nUIaddon.com
My day job: http://www.presidio.com/
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12-16-13, 02:22 PM   #10
Alianin
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8
Scott, thank you for standing up to the cyber bullies of our gaming community. I empathize and stand with your desire to create a safe community that does not support such abusive and disruptive behavior. I'm saddened that others can't seem to understand this simple concept or are the ones that caused this issue in the first place. I hope that this all can be resolved quickly and without further heartache. Thank you for all your hard work on nUI and dedication to a worthy cause (eco-geeks).
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12-16-13, 02:54 PM   #11
Cleggy
A Defias Bandit
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3
well scott i say Fcuk em Fcuk em all... you've done a great job and now that your on curse i have no further reason to bookmark this site cya chapps
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12-16-13, 03:07 PM   #12
Nightslayer
A Defias Bandit
Join Date: Apr 2009
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This is just plain sad

Let me be clear. I joined this website six years ago strictly so that I could use Nui. At the time it wasn't available anywhere else that I could find. I have been a subscriber to the Nui newsletter ever since, even though I haven't used Nui in a while now. The fact that some one can take their time to create something that they give away for free and then get beat up is just totally beyond me. It speks to what the gaming community has become. Not once in those six years have I ever gotten an email from Scott that I found offensive. For him to say that he doesn't want to support his "free" product for people who treat him like crap seems perfectly justified to me. I have the last years worth of newsletters still on my server and actually took the time to review each one just a few minutes ago. When we downloaded Nui we took with it a newsletter subscription. We always had the option to tag it as spam or simple discontinue it. Through the years I have read as Scott has asked for assistance to go to Blizzcon, assistance with web hosting and assistance with an environmental project that he strongly believes in. Not once in a single email has he said that my use, support of or continued download of his product was dependent on my donation. Not even in his most recent emails over the past couple of months. This treatment of someone who offers a free services is honestly beyond me.
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12-16-13, 03:23 PM   #13
Cleggy
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Originally Posted by Nightslayer View Post
Let me be clear. I joined this website six years ago strictly so that I could use Nui. At the time it wasn't available anywhere else that I could find. I have been a subscriber to the Nui newsletter ever since, even though I haven't used Nui in a while now. The fact that some one can take their time to create something that they give away for free and then get beat up is just totally beyond me. It speks to what the gaming community has become. Not once in those six years have I ever gotten an email from Scott that I found offensive. For him to say that he doesn't want to support his "free" product for people who treat him like crap seems perfectly justified to me. I have the last years worth of newsletters still on my server and actually took the time to review each one just a few minutes ago. When we downloaded Nui we took with it a newsletter subscription. We always had the option to tag it as spam or simple discontinue it. Through the years I have read as Scott has asked for assistance to go to Blizzcon, assistance with web hosting and assistance with an environmental project that he strongly believes in. Not once in a single email has he said that my use, support of or continued download of his product was dependent on my donation. Not even in his most recent emails over the past couple of months. This treatment of someone who offers a free services is honestly beyond me.

Well said.
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12-16-13, 03:29 PM   #14
Drey
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9
I really wasn't going to post a reply because in all honesty I don't think anyone really listens to what anyone has to say these days but this comment from WoWI really stuck in my gut.
Further to that note, we expected better from him, as one of our Featured Artists. Even beyond being a good member of our community, we hold Featured Artists to a higher standard.
I think perhaps WoWI should quickly recognize their incredible lack of integrity in how they treat their "Featured Artists." The relationship displayed here is truly nothing more than master and servant. True, WoWI creates a site were developers can come to host their creations however their goal is clearly not altruism. No, their pursuit is money.

To abuse another of seeking the same is ridiculously childish to the point of infantile.

Even YouTube has the integrity to share their profits with the people most directly responsible for generating their revenue and I heartily think that WoWI should quickly do the same otherwise someone will eventually build a site where developers are part of the team and not a resource to be consumed and dried up as was Scott.

Just my thoughts....
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12-16-13, 03:31 PM   #15
bwhansen
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I have to go with Scott on this, especially since everything offered is available for free.

Everything else has been said in other posts. The only thing I will add is without the NUI forums being here, I no longer have a reason to visit this site everyday. My guess is I may be down to one day a week.

Bye bye add revenue.
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12-16-13, 03:48 PM   #16
bigdawg1022
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4
I know this sounds silly but I found wowinterface through nUI. its the only reason I registered here in the first place. I liked nUI so much that I registered for wowinterface to get the nUI+ version. All free I might add. So if nUI leaves this site, well so will I then. I know that my solitary membership wont hurt their advertising dollars one bit, and I don't want it to. I know they are only trying to keep their website going. It is not wrong of them to take a look at their authors, but this really isn't the case here. They are making an absurd assumption like many others did. Yeah, I wish Scott hadn't had to even think of making nUI private, but can you really blame him for it?
The reaction this site had is a little short sighted don't ya think. Try researching a little more next time. I see your point about addons having to be free to be hosted here, but nUI is still free. Scott is basically just saying, hey let me know you aren't a douche and Ill keep giving you an awesome free product.
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12-16-13, 03:53 PM   #17
bruj0
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I think its an authors right to decide how his works is distributed or used, its their work after all and NOBODY should be able to tell them how or to whom they can distribute it to.

They also have or should have the right to profit from their work if they so chose to, what Blizzard and wowinterface are doing its not morally right.

If Blizzard doesnt want addons then they could easily close down the API and that would be it for everybody but they cant because 99% of the gamers need at least one addon to play (ask healers).

So in part addon authors are working FOR Blizzard when making addons yet they cant profit from that?

Ive also noticed that anybody that says "its greed" or "how can you charge for your addons" never wrote 1 line of code in their lives and think addons appear magically in a zip file.

Last edited by bruj0 : 12-16-13 at 03:58 PM.
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12-16-13, 04:28 PM   #18
Dridzt
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Well wowi needs a bit of author drama every couple years to keep things from getting stale.
Last good entertainment of the kind was when EWOlson injected ads into his addons hosted on wowi over the wowmatrix affair.

Some of us have been sharing addons we make for free just as long without asking for some kind of medal for it.
That is because it's a hobby inside another hobby and you don't monetize your hobbies lest they become jobs.

If you want to get an idea of what motivates addon authors to share their work (it varies) you can see a recent survey with voluntary participation of several active addon authors here.
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=48549

Of particular interest to you all might be these 2 questions / answers

Question 8: When you began developing addons, would you say your PRIMARY reason was:

Trying to fill a personal in-game need: 26 (70.27%)
Trying to fill an in-game need of someone else I knew: 2 (5.41%)
Wanted to improve the game for all players: 1 (2.7%)
Wanted to learn more about programming addons: 8 (21.62%)
Hoped to develop job skills, or get a job in the games industry: 0
Wanted to meet other people interested in addons: 0
Question 21: Which is a more accurate way to describe your opinion of developing an addon?

It's like a game itself, that I play for fun or relaxation: 20 (57.14%)
It's a way to give something to others to improve their game play: 4 (11.43%)
It's a way to learn new technical skills: 9 (25.71%)
It's a job, or work, that I do for reasons other than fun: 2 (5.71%)
It's a opportunity to meet others socially: 0
It's a way to gain the approval of others by showcasing my technical skills: 0
So I guess he falls into the minority of "It's a job, or work, that I do for reasons other than fun".

In a sense I can understand that he doesn't appreciate the tools, convenience, hosting wowi offers but most of all just the part about being a meeting place for addon authors and users.
Minimal presence to offer or even request assistance in Developer Forums.
To share some knowledge you know?

So you have a guy who's been taking from collective knowledge in order to improve their 'product' and trying to monetize their hobby for years, finally pushing the line they've been skirting and getting called out for it.

Excuse me that I don't join the pity party and I've written and shared a few tens of thousands of lines of Lua.

I'm fully aware Blizzard is indirectly benefiting from my hobby endeavor as well as the hosting sites from ad revenue, but I didn't discover this just now... I was aware and accepting when I shared my first addon.

Last edited by Dridzt : 12-16-13 at 05:35 PM.
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12-16-13, 05:28 PM   #19
S0larian161
A Kobold Labourer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1
So when I first discovered Nui a very long time ago. I liked it, I wanted the full version. I thought at the time that it was crap that you had to pay to get the full + version of the game. But I sucked it up and went forward with a donation to the Nui cause. I thanked for it and when on my business. When Scott sent the email about his cause I was moved and thought it was good that someone in the gamer community was trying to do something. I had a funny feeling that it was going to not work and Scotts charity was going to make nothing on it.

When I got his upset letter in email. The very first one, I took it as he was pulling nui. You had to kiss ass to get nui if you were not a Premium member already. In fact there seemed to be nothing on weather there still was going to be new premium members allowed. The one thing that got me was that you had to pay in order to get Nui now. I took this as Scott having a tantrum because no one wanted to donate to his cause. His big email that was released when he told the community that some people called him names and he was going to no longer let them get nui. I took that as a huge slap in the face from him. He was punishing me and the community for some people that called him names and because we the community did not jump all over his charity.

I figuring i am wrong on this. But as someone just sitting on the side and not paying full attention. This is what i got from all of this stuff. I totally understand why wowI took away his status and wants to shut down the Nui forums.

When i got scotts first email. I was left with a bad taste in my mouth and I figured if he was going to be like that to us just over a few people then i just was not going to use his mod anymore. Its not worth it to me if this much drama is caused over a charity and some rude people that are all over the internet

Like I said i most likely wrong as I have not read everything posted. I do appreciate Scott still leaving it free . As his first email lead nothing to that happening. I do appreciate his apology to the community as well.
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12-16-13, 05:39 PM   #20
spiel2001
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This seems quite appropriate right now...

"Too much is written by the men who can't write about the men who do write." ~ Jack London
__________________

What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
My brush has two colors, 1 and 0, and my canvas is made of silicon.



Official nUI Web Site: http://www.nUIaddon.com
Official nUI Support Forum: http://forums.nUIaddon.com
My day job: http://www.presidio.com/
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WoWInterface » Featured Projects » nUI, MozzFullWorldMap and PartySpotter » General » nUI: Community Chat » @ Cairren, WoWI and the nUI community...

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