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Unread 04-14-09, 04:40 AM   #41
Tristanian
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Originally Posted by Rendus View Post
And therein lies the problem. The authors of addons feel that the ability of the user to actually find and use their addon should be inhibited for whatever reason - I'm not sure if it's vanity, if it's some misplaced desire to control every aspect of their project, if it's just open hostility toward the people they wrote the addon for.


My point is solely this: I cannot understand why the addon authors, who have no stake in WoWInterface or Curse, are so vehemently against alternate means of getting their addons.
If you created something, only to discover it being distributed (directly or indirectly) by someone that wasn't even gracious enough to ask if its ok, then perhaps it did not upset you. Do not presume however that this logic applies to everyone. WM is just taking advantage of a technicality to avoid copyright infringement, by masking distribution as "linking". It is not legally wrong, but it is morally. Surprisingly enough, some do care.

As for who makes money out of it, it's not my primary concern either, however I can see how it can be a concern and given the option, I'd much rather have the people who are gracious enough to host the addons, benefit from it financially than anyone else. Why ? Because they make authors lives easier, they provide tools, repository system, packagers, the works. I hope that it is now crystal clear on why some of us have this "misplaced desire to control every aspect of our project". Misplaced desire, rofl. Really, now.


Want to walk your average WOW users through this? At a casual glance, I can't even find the WoWInterface installer. Find? Nothing. Community? This. Addons? Well, those are addons. Projects? Nope, a SVN repository of addons in various questionable stages of quality. Forums? This heap again.

I google for "wowinterface addon updater", and first hit has this gem:

Please Note: This updater is being discontinued. We're allowing you to continue downloading this current version until the new one is ready, but please be aware that it may not work as well as could be hoped for.

Well... That's... Good. So do I download that or not?

I know I wouldn't.
Here, you are just rambling. There are no "questionable stages of quality" in the repository. The vast majority of authors using it, are actively doing so. Most of the addons are very much usable and search can perform miracles, if you are patient and know what you are looking for. Hint : 'Favorites' are your friend.

All in all, if you are unfamiliar with the site, you can just as well seek help in a reasonable and polite manner. If you are here to stir trouble or vent your frustration due to your precious updater being broken on a patch day, then, as the moderators will probably confirm, you picked the wrong site.
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Unread 04-14-09, 04:40 AM   #42
Rendus
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Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
The other hundred are to lazy to search for updates for their addons, they will be to lazy to search for the right place to get support or to submit a bug report.
Why should authors have a look on several alternate download pages for support questions, bug reports, and so on?
The hundred (well, millions, when you look at the playerbase as a whole) that are incapable of updating their addons, be it from sloth, ineptitude, a lack of understanding, or whatever other reason, wouldn't be able to provide meaningful feedback in the first place, and likely would complain in guildchat about it, delete the addon, and find a replacement.

The few error reports that would be provided by these users would be copy and pastes of error text that the author should already be aware of if he's eating his own dogfood.
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Unread 04-14-09, 04:41 AM   #43
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My point is solely this: I cannot understand why the addon authors, who have no stake in WoWInterface or Curse, are so vehemently against alternate means of getting their addons.
Because we DO have a stake in WoWInterface and Curse. Not financial, of course, but in support and hosting. Curse and WoWI have fully supported the addon community, with hosting, tools, forums, advice, and even in getting the mod authors into beta to make sure the addons are working come release time. It is in OUR BEST INTEREST to keep WoWinterface and Curse up and running. Heck, it is in the END USER'S best interest to keep them up as well, because without them, there's no distribution site.

Why did they pick today? It's obvious, they wanted to unveil this defense on the day they needed it the most. If WoWMatrix were working, this site would probably be crushed under the weight of hundreds of thousands of people spamming the update button, and their bandwidth usage would be astronomical. If they had released this last week, it would have given WM time to get around it.

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Unread 04-14-09, 04:51 AM   #44
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I agree with the blocks, however I'm disappointed that I'll most likely be forced to use the Curse updater due to the basically nonexistent WOWI updater
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Unread 04-14-09, 04:53 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Rendus View Post
The hundred (well, millions, when you look at the playerbase as a whole) that are incapable of updating their addons, be it from sloth, ineptitude, a lack of understanding, or whatever other reason, wouldn't be able to provide meaningful feedback in the first place, and likely would complain in guildchat about it, delete the addon, and find a replacement.

The few error reports that would be provided by these users would be copy and pastes of error text that the author should already be aware of if he's eating his own dogfood.
Then let them find replacements. This is not a popularity contest and the Earth will keep spinning if users in that category don't use our addons. I will even go on a limb and state that said users do not deserve any kind of support in my eyes. I would suspect that others may feel the same way.
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Unread 04-14-09, 04:55 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
If you created something, only to discover it being distributed (directly or indirectly) by someone that wasn't even gracious enough to ask if its ok, then perhaps it did not upset you. Do not presume however that this logic applies to everyone. WM is just taking advantage of a technicality to avoid copyright infringement, by masking distribution as "linking". It is not legally wrong, but it is morally. Surprisingly enough, some do care.
I'm not certain it is morally wrong. The people who feel they have been wronged surely do. I've created many things in the past that have been included in outright commercial products (Doom and Quake map pack disks in particular). I was, personally, honored to have been noticed and distributed. Perhaps mildly annoyed that I wasn't getting a cut, but a thousand wad authors makes for very shallow dividends.

The practice was commonplace. People'd FTP to cdrom.com/pub/doom/wads, pick stuff at random and stuff it on a disk. Most people included license text plainly visible as a separate .txt/file_id.diz file that explained redistribution rights - I waived mine. I still can't tell what most addons here say on the matter without downloading them. You get into weird territory with copyright in that area.

As for who makes money out of it, it's not my primary concern either, however I can see how it can be a concern and given the option, I'd much rather have the people who are gracious enough to host the addons, benefit from it financially than anyone else. Why ? Because they make authors lives easier, they provide tools, repository system, packagers, the works. I hope that it is now crystal clear on why some of us have this "misplaced desire to control every aspect of our project". Misplaced desire, rofl. Really, now.
Indeed, I understand completely the desire of WOWI/Curse to control access to their site, and to direct downloads of files from their servers. I've made that as clear as possible.

You've partially answered the question regarding why people want their addons to only be distributed through these sites, but I still fail to understand why they're willing to go to such great lengths as to spawn arguments wherever they roam regarding it. It's WOWI/Curse's burden, not the interface author's, and again, I can't understand why interface authors feel that further distribution of the product they release free of charge to anyone who cares to click on a download link is upset by further distribution.

The argument continually switches between finances, author's rights, morality, but they never meet up in one cohesive, convincing argument.


Here, you are just rambling. There are no "questionable stages of quality" in the repository. The vast majority of authors using it, are actively doing so. Most of the addons are very much usable and search can perform miracles, if you are patient and know what you are looking for. Hint : 'Favorites' are your friend.
Favorites are your friend until such a time as that favorite is no longer associated with the project. I see on the FuBar page, at some point, the author opted to no longer maintain FuBar on WOWI. Not sure why, but if I were using favorites, I'd likely see a lack of updates and move on. Then, it breaks. I check WOWI for updates for it. Still no update. I uninstall it and install TitanPanel instead because the author wanted to keep a tight handle on distribution of his addon for whatever reason.

All in all, if you are unfamiliar with the site, you can just as well seek help in a reasonable and polite manner. If you are here to stir trouble or vent your frustration due to your precious updater being broken on a patch day, then, as the moderators will probably confirm, you picked the wrong site.
You might notice I've been a registered user for quite some time, but with no posts to my name. This was back when WOWI required you to be a registered user to search (or perhaps download, I forget). I'm being boisterous and aggressive, but in no way am I stirring trouble or venting fustration. I'm providing a counter-point to the backpatting taking place here, from the perspective of an enduser inconvenienced for the luxury of the addon authors and WOWI.

There's another post after I started writing this reply, which I'll reply to here.

Because we DO have a stake in WoWInterface and Curse. Not financial, of course, but in support and hosting. Curse and WoWI have fully supported the addon community, with hosting, tools, forums, advice, and even in getting the mod authors into beta to make sure the addons are working come release time. It is in OUR BEST INTEREST to keep WoWinterface and Curse up and running. Heck, it is in the END USER'S best interest to keep them up as well, because without them, there's no distribution site.

Why did they pick today? It's obvious, they wanted to unveil this defense on the day they needed it the most. If WoWMatrix were working, this site would probably be crushed under the weight of hundreds of thousands of people spamming the update button, and their bandwidth usage would be astronomical. If they had released this last week, it would have given WM time to get around it.

When someone is stealing from your house, you add new locks.
I didn't ask why they chose today. I actually explained why they chose today.

The argument of 'bandwith usage' is moot, though, after just a moment's thought. More bandwidth will be used by forcing the UI elements of every page to load, the PHP of every search to execute, the text of every futile search for each individual addon for each individual user than will be used by people clicking an update button. The average addon is relatively small - The largest addon I have installed is QuestHelper at 22MB.

Server load, moreso than bandwidth concerns, come into play during patch day due to searching, PHP code rendering (I'm pretty sure there's no backend caching taking place, but I haven't looked that closely), and user activity.

Out of curiosity, how many addon authors that state ad revenue for WOWI/Curse as their cause for concern visit these sites with AdBlockPlus or the like?

Edit for a gem:

Then let them find replacements. This is not a popularity contest and the Earth will keep spinning if users in that category don't use our addons. I will even go on a limb and state that said users do not deserve any kind of support in my eyes. I would suspect that others may feel the same way.
It's this hostility toward users that utterly baffles me. If you want a working addon, and a convenient way of acquiring said addon, you deserve no support?

Last edited by Rendus : 04-14-09 at 04:58 AM.
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Unread 04-14-09, 04:58 AM   #47
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i dont trust other addon sites other than wowinterface and curse!!
if wowmatrix leeching these legit sites!! is it not possible to implement a situation where you have to be login as members before you can download? and put alot more security features like confirmation code that changes everytime you download the same files so that they cannot deep-link files in wowinterface and curse to wowmatrix?
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Unread 04-14-09, 04:59 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Glocknine View Post
i dont trust other addon sites other than wowinterface and curse!!
if wowmatrix leeching these legit sites!! is it not possible to implement a situation where you have to be login as members before you can download? and put alot more security features like confirmation code that changes everytime you download the same files so that they cannot deep-link files in wowinterface and curse to wowmatrix?
It is technically possible for them to do this, and in the past WOWI used to require logins to either search for or download addons. They need to refrain from making the site more difficult to use, though, really.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Rendus View Post
The hundred (well, millions, when you look at the playerbase as a whole) that are incapable of updating their addons, be it from sloth, ineptitude, a lack of understanding, or whatever other reason, wouldn't be able to provide meaningful feedback in the first place, and likely would complain in guildchat about it, delete the addon, and find a replacement.

The few error reports that would be provided by these users would be copy and pastes of error text that the author should already be aware of if he's eating his own dogfood.
Well you can play the game without addons. Sloth and ineptitude should be criminal offences, no wait would bring me to prison as well, but at least they do not work in this argument. If you do not like the standard interface, do your homework and read. Lack of understanding? What is so difficult in using favorites on this page? Even if the updater is discontinued it works fine (and as you have stated before, the people do not read, they would not even see that it is outdated).
If they could not update their addons due to a lack of understanding, how did they install WoW?

Originally Posted by Rendus View Post
...if it's just open hostility toward the people they wrote the addon for.
Maybe some of the authors wrote the addons for themself and not for other endusers. Thought about that?
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:05 AM   #50
Rendus
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Originally Posted by FrankN View Post
Well you can play the game without addons. Sloth and ineptitude should be criminal offences, no wait would bring me to prison as well, but at least they do not work in this argument. If you do not like the standard interface, do your homework and read. Lack of understanding? What is so difficult in using favorites on this page? Even if the updater is discontinued it works fine (and as you have stated before, the people do not read, they would not even see that it is outdated).
If they could not update their addons due to a lack of understanding, how did they install WoW?
11 million people are currently playing this game. Many of them know how to put a disk in a drive, and click next a few times. They don't know how to deal with C:\program files\world of warcraft\interface\addons, Zip files or anything of the sort. More knowledgeable people help them, install a few addons, maybe even WowMatrix or a similar program and show them how to click Update to keep things in order.

Insulting the end user is a common practice, but in the end it serves no purpose. There are people that were given instructions, and followed them, but don't know what exactly it was that they did. I guarantee you that every user in the forum, at one point in their computer-using lives, have done this.

Maybe some of the authors wrote the addons for themself and not for other endusers. Thought about that?
Then why are they burdening WOWI/Curse with their cast-off project that has no business being distributed?
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:10 AM   #51
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Actually this entire discussion is moot. This is October 2008 all over again.

http://forums.wowace.com/showthread.php?t=14361
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=18358
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...1&pageNo=23#33


People are simply months old on this subject. You can even watch in these threads as how WM was altering their application, during our discussions. I suggest that people take the time to go through all these threads and think long and hard if they have anything new to bring to the table. Nothing more needs to be said than what has been posted on those mega threads.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:15 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
Actually this entire discussion is moot. This is October 2008 all over again.

http://forums.wowace.com/showthread.php?t=14361
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=18358
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...1&pageNo=23#33


People are simply months old on this subject. You can even watch in these threads as how WM was altering their application, during our discussions. I suggest that people take the time to go through all these threads and think long and hard if they have anything new to bring to the table. Nothing more needs to be said than what has been posted on those mega threads.
This is an argument as old as copyright, as old as money, as old as barter depending on just how you look at it.

You're right, though. Nobody's going to convince anyone of anything at this point. Addon authors insist they want to help WOWI/Curse by keeping their addons here, but clog the database and storage with addons they haven't updated since the dawn of time, and with Hello, World!-style addons that should've never passed through their router.

I've actually made it a habit of clicking on everyone's "Addon Author" pip, just to see what sort of atrocities were written by the people arguing this, and only one person that I've noticed (I'm sure I've missed someone) has more addons updated in the last 3 months than not (this author being Tristanian, as a matter of fact. Salut.).

I'm willing to bet that if WOWI/Curse were to cull these useless addons that no longer serve as even programming examples due to their age and obsolescence, they'd solve more issues due to a reduced search index and less storage used than they'll save by banning WowMatrix for a month.

And it's all moot anyway as their measures will inevitably be bypassed.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:25 AM   #53
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I've actually made it a habit of clicking on everyone's "Addon Author" pip, just to see what sort of atrocities were written by the people arguing this, and only one person that I've noticed (I'm sure I've missed someone) has more addons updated in the last 3 months than not (this author being Tristanian, as a matter of fact. Salut.).

Why would a stable working addon need to be updated in the last three months? There's been no major changes to the UI code, no TOC updates between Nov and now, so a working addon (like mine) might not need any updates.

You assume that an addon that hasn't been updated every week is somehow non-functional, which just isn't true.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:28 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Neuro View Post
Why would a stable working addon need to be updated in the last three months? There's been no major changes to the UI code, no TOC updates between Nov and now, so a working addon (like mine) might not need any updates.

You assume that an addon that hasn't been updated every week is somehow non-functional, which just isn't true.
Preemptive preparation for 3.1, for starters. Updates, enhancements, bugfixes as further reasons.

I notice your only addon was updated yesterday. Why'd you do that?

There you go.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:33 AM   #55
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Well, some of the authors choose Curse as a place to "actively" update their addons, would be more precise to say actually WoWAce (the addons are only getting syndicated to Curse). Why ? I would reckon, it's mostly a matter of version control system. Usually, if you pick one, you stick with the supporting site, mostly due to technical reasons with the packager support. It's really not anything personal and most of us know each other anyway and don't hold it against each other

I do agree that both databases need some deal of cleanup, BUT, there are instances of addons that are still perfectly working and don't need updates (in all honesty a working addon doesn't need a .toc bump or something, I personally do it, to avoid support questions and save time). Best thing is to report a vastly outdated (and broken) addon and at least here on WoWI, I've personally witnessed that the response/evaluation is generally fast, in such an occasion.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:34 AM   #56
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So, I install Curse Client to see what the deal is.

It installs an addon that, as far as I can remember, it never asked permission to install.

At least it wasn't Weatherbug, I guess.

Author > User.

Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
Well, some of the authors choose Curse as a place to "actively" update their addons, would be more precise to say actually WoWAce (the addons are only getting syndicated to Curse). Why ? I would reckon, it's mostly a matter of version control system. Usually, if you pick one, you stick with the supporting site, mostly due to technical reasons with the packager support. It's really not anything personal and most of us know each other anyway and don't hold it against each other

I do agree that both databases need some deal of cleanup, BUT, there are instances of addons that are still perfectly working and don't need updates (in all honesty a working addon doesn't need a .toc bump or something, I personally do it, to avoid support questions and save time). Best thing is to report a vastly outdated (and broken) addon and at least here on WoWI, I've personally witnessed that the response/evaluation is generally fast, in such an occasion.
I'd wager that any addon pre-2007 could be safely culled. It'd be a hell of a task to go through and report ancient addons as broken, given the sheer number of them. It'd be nice if authors would self-police in that regard.

Last edited by Rendus : 04-14-09 at 05:36 AM.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:38 AM   #57
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I acutally have to laugh at those who whine and moan that their guildies can't/won't update their AddOns if they don't have WoWMatrix. Why? Because I am known as the mod guru in my guild and I have persuaded my entire guild (A guild of about 400 odd players that range from clueless to total geeks), to NOT use WM. Instead most use either the Curse Client or they manually update. I have assisted in this effort by providing stable links to the AddOns we use on our forums. Those links only goto the AddOn's download page so my guildies will see the site's adverts (WoWI and Curse are one of a handful of site whom I allow to show adverts) and the donation button. I don't deep link directly to the file itself. I have in the past on really bad patch days, thrown together a quick AddOn pack and hosted it on Curse. Once the patch day had blown over, I would remove the mod pack as most of my guild mates had download it or did their own manual download. I did all the support on those mods in those AddOn packs, however I don't create AddOn packs anymore as both Curse and WoWI have put the infrastructure in place to handle Patch Day. Instead now I focus on actual UIs with quite a bit of custom code.

It's really not difficult to get a guild to update their mods without WM. If a guild member can't update without WM then that just speaks of pure laziness on the part of the player. My guild can't use the excuse of too busy to update as we are all working adults yet we still get our AddOn updates done without the use of WM and still have to time make another Sarth 3d run.

Authors have a number of incentives to control where their AddOns are distributed. These include things like centralized bug tracking systems (either via comments on Curse/WoWI or the ticket system used on CurseForge/WoWAce. Other incentives include easy donation pages and eventually on Curse, Author Rewards. As an artist and author myself, I want to control where my works are distributed from. WM and alternate download sites beyond the ones I have authorized do not benefit me in any way and in fact hurt me as I can't keep track of what is going with my work. Sure my one WoW AddOn is pretty old (it no longer works with WoW), however I am thinking of the future as I do have some projects in the works.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:44 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Rendus View Post
Preemptive preparation for 3.1, for starters. Updates, enhancements, bugfixes as further reasons.

I notice your only addon was updated yesterday. Why'd you do that?

There you go.
You're making my point for me.

I updated my addon because the game code changed. Up until today, it didn't need to be changed. To be honest, it didn't even need that; it would have worked just fine had you clicked the "Load out of date addons".

Not every addon needs updates, enhancements, and bugfixes. Some do what they are meant to do just fine, so they can go months without any changes.
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:45 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Lykofos View Post
I acutally have to laugh at those who whine and moan that their guildies can't/won't update their AddOns if they don't have WoWMatrix. Why? Because I am known as the mod guru in my guild and I have persuaded my entire guild (A guild of about 400 odd players that range from clueless to total geeks), to NOT use WM. Instead most use either the Curse Client or they manually update. I have assisted in this effort by providing stable links to the AddOns we use on our forums. Those links goto the AddOn's download page so my guildies will see the site's adverts (WoWI and Curse are one of a handful of site whom I allow to show adverts) and the donation button. I have in the past on really bad patch days, thrown together a quick AddOn pack and hosted it on Curse. Once the patch day had blown over, I simple remove the mod pack as most of my guild mates had download it or did their own manual download.

It's really not difficult to get a guild to update their mods without WM. If a guild can't update without WM then that just speaks of pure laziness on the part of the guild member.

Authors have a number of incentives to control where their AddOns are distributed. These include things like centralized bug tracking systems (either via comments on Curse/WoWI or the ticket system used on CurseForge/WoWAce. Other incentives include easy donation pages and eventually on Curse, Author Rewards. As an artist and author myself, I want to control where my works are distributed from. WM and alternate download sites beyond the ones I have authorized do not benefit me in any way and in fact hurt me as I can't keep track of what is going with my work. Sure my one WoW AddOn is pretty old (it no longer works with WoW), however I am thinking of the future as I do have some projects in the works.
You state it's really not difficult, then go on to say how you violate mod author's rights by creating an unauthorized compilation of addons, then rehost them on WOWI instead of distributing it privately.

Yet earlier I was given grief for intending to do the same thing, minus the rehosting on WOWI.

Your compilation and mine are in the same vein, failing to benefit the author in any way.

(I could be petty and state that deep linking to a particular addon is depriving WOWI of the ad revenue from views on the front page and search result pages, but that's just being silly )
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Unread 04-14-09, 05:46 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Neuro View Post
You're making my point for me.

I updated my addon because the game code changed. Up until today, it didn't need to be changed. To be honest, it didn't even need that; it would have worked just fine had you clicked the "Load out of date addons".

Not every addon needs updates, enhancements, and bugfixes. Some do what they are meant to do just fine, so they can go months without any changes.
I love changelogs.

3.1.0 TOC Updated for 3.1, hopefully fixed a bug with the delay timer throwing errors occassionally.
Care to go again?

-edit- I will concede a point here, though. I am using FancyBar, an addon from early 2007, that I haven't found as simple of a replacement for. It does throw errors with some regularity, though.

-final edit- Like I said, we're not going to convince the other they're wrong and change their ways here. I just felt the need to provide a counter-point to the backpatting here, and indeed initially I was posting out of sheer frustration - But not from the temporary loss of WowMatrix, and instead the inability to sleep. It's now 5AM, I need to be at work at 7AM, so I'm going to go pretend to sleep and hope the Patch Fairy gives me back Spiritual Attunement in 3.1.1. I'm sure there'll be celebrations that the mighty troll has been vanquished, but I hope people will at least consider (or reconsider) why they release addons in the first place - To be used. I tried more addons because they looked interesting in WowMatrix than I've ever bothered with across WOWI and Curse and WoWAce and CT and so on combined.

Most of them sucked.

Last edited by Rendus : 04-14-09 at 05:54 AM.
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