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Old 04-30-09, 03:27 AM   #1001
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Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
Wow. So much misinformation. To say that the users have a right to file a class-action lawsuit for a completely free-to-use service is so full of fail I'm going to stop typing right now and proceed to shake my head and move on.
Agreed.

I'm at work so I'll see if I can be brief.

From many posts I have read complaining about the decision most people including myself do actually visit the official web pages to read up on changes or post feedback/bug reports.
A handfull of users can not generate the ad traffic required to pay for thousands of dollars of bandwidth.

30-50% of 13. - 1.8TB of un-reimbursed traffic. This is how much their traffic went down as a direct result of the wow matrix move.

Originally Posted by schmittyd View Post
The argument put forward about protecting authors is also misleading, considering that most, if not all mods are provided by a GPL or similar open source licence which generally allow free and open distribution, so here is a warning to Curse and WI - be very careful with your false pander, you are actually breaking the terms of the open source licences by disallowing distribution by third parties.
Once again.

Openly readable code is not open source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_software

Most addons are in fact not released under a GPL license. And false pander ??? WTF??? These are the sites the authors release to and they have said what their licenses are and believe me. Not many are GPL or open source.

So are you saying the authors of these addons don't know the licenses they've released their addons under when they were the ones writing them in the first place?

*brain go explody*


Originally Posted by schmittyd View Post
WM, authors and users have the legal right to file class action lawsuits against Curse and WI, which would result in severe financial losses so please reconsider your decision as who will you be helping if you have to close due to your own greed and misconceptions.
Believe me it's not greed.

Greed is defined as wanting to take a lot of stuff needlessly without giving anything back.

Servers don't run on sunshine and rainbows. Bandwidth doesn't grow on trees and is not free. Both addons sites do so much for the community for free. From free hosting of addons to giving away beta keys.
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Old 04-30-09, 04:54 AM   #1002
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Originally Posted by schmittyd View Post
The argument put forward about protecting authors is also misleading, considering that most, if not all mods are provided by a GPL or similar open source licence which generally allow free and open distribution, so here is a warning to Curse and WI - be very careful with your false pander, you are actually breaking the terms of the open source licences by disallowing distribution by third parties. WM, authors and users have the legal right to file class action lawsuits against Curse and WI, which would result in severe financial losses so please reconsider your decision as who will you be helping if you have to close due to your own greed and misconceptions.
OK, I have to call BS here.

Its been said time and time again that if a mod is released WITH NO LICENSE, then the license is "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED".

How can that be made more clear? Blink tags and sirens?

If you don't see a license file attached to the mod (either in its code or as a separate file in the AddOn's folder), then the AddOn author retains all rights to the mod. Copyright is granted to the author at the moment the author writes the mod. The author has to make the decision to give up some of his/her rights via a license agreement (and that agreement has to be documented).

Having the code in a readable format does not make the code "Open Source". Open readable code and "Open Source" are two entirely different things. The vast majority of AddOns released are "All Rights Reserved". Sure there are a few major mods that have been released under the GPL, however the GPL license agreement is included in the AddOn (as per the terms of the GPL).

So in short, if the AddOn does not have a GPL, BSD or other form of Open Source license attached to the AddOn, then IT IS NOT OPEN SOURCE.
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Old 04-30-09, 07:24 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by us2006027321 View Post
It could be said that Jews vilified Hitler
I can't resist. Goodwin's law anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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Old 04-30-09, 07:47 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by schmittyd View Post
Hi All,
The argument put forward about protecting authors is also misleading, considering that most, if not all mods are provided by a GPL or similar open source licence which generally allow free and open distribution, so here is a warning to Curse and WI - be very careful with your false pander, you are actually breaking the terms of the open source licences by disallowing distribution by third parties. WM, authors and users have the legal right to file class action lawsuits against Curse and WI, which would result in severe financial losses so please reconsider your decision as who will you be helping if you have to close due to your own greed and misconceptions.
Many of the authors that no longer have their addons on WowMatrix want it that way. Why would they file law suits against Curse and WoWI for making it possible for them to keep their addons off something they didn't want it on in the first place?
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Old 04-30-09, 08:01 AM   #1005
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1000th!!!!!!
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Old 04-30-09, 08:23 AM   #1006
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Godwin was a nub. He just hated it when people made reference to the 40's because that's when his mom married his uncle, then she stopped taking birth control in 49, and he was born in 56.

How about that out of context quote then, instead saying that Americans villified the Japanese for Pearl Harbor?

Yeah, it's all ridiculous, but analogies seldom are not.

/sarcasm
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Old 04-30-09, 09:02 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
Godwin was a nub. He just hated it when people made reference to the 40's because that's when his mom married his uncle, then she stopped taking birth control in 49, and he was born in 56.
OK..... I have no idea where that came from
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Old 04-30-09, 10:53 AM   #1008
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Paying for addons is only fair

Just an FYI,

I am one of those people (and I expect we are a significant portion, if not a majority of WoW players) that is only barely, if at all, computer literate.

We NEED as much simplicity as possible, its just that simple.

I have been, and will continue to be, a WoWMatrix user. Why? I have tried, and cannot easily naviagate Curse or WoWInterface to keep my updates straight, AND to easily search for new addons that might be helpful to me. WoWMatrix works perfectly for me at least, in those regards.

I DO understand the bandwith and author problems, and I agree it is only fair that these authors be in control of their own material.

WoWMatrix has recently stepped up the ability to easily donate to the authors on their site, and I AM DOING SO. People should not be expected to work for free.

As for the sites themselves, I will donate to them as I use them. I have donated to WoWMatrix, but have not done so yet to WoWI or Curse as I have not been able to figure out how to effectively use them (although I am here to broadcast this message, so I do probably owe something to WoWI for allowing this forum . . . we shall see how this goes).

Either way, flame away if you must, but I already know I'm a computer idiot. For me, this is a game and something to enjoy in my spare time, and yes - I need help and simplicity.

I just thought the authors and potential authors here should know that many of us idiots are willing to pay, and are doing so.
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Old 04-30-09, 11:16 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by Thrillseeker View Post
1000th!!!!!!
You've been lurking in this thread waiting to pounce on that, haven't you? You sly b*stard...


Originally Posted by honem View Post
And mr Us some funny string of numbers man ...We still haven't heard wowmatrix's response to you .....
Wait for the steak to marinade, my friend. I'm still waiting on a reply to my most recent string of questions. I dressed Cairenn's questions up a bit, but you really can't dress up those questions so much that they aren't obvious, and I'm not so sure I'm going to get a response. I was hoping to get a response by today so I could put up my brilliant blog post, but I may have to push out my self-imposed deadline to Monday. >.> Sorry! /hug

Oh, and about that funny string of numbers, click here.


Originally Posted by MMcCroskey View Post
Just an FYI,

I am one of those people (and I expect we are a significant portion, if not a majority of WoW players) that is only barely, if at all, computer literate.

We NEED as much simplicity as possible, its just that simple.

I have been, and will continue to be, a WoWMatrix user. Why? I have tried, and cannot easily naviagate Curse or WoWInterface to keep my updates straight, AND to easily search for new addons that might be helpful to me. WoWMatrix works perfectly for me at least, in those regards.

I DO understand the bandwith and author problems, and I agree it is only fair that these authors be in control of their own material.

WoWMatrix has recently stepped up the ability to easily donate to the authors on their site, and I AM DOING SO. People should not be expected to work for free.

As for the sites themselves, I will donate to them as I use them. I have donated to WoWMatrix, but have not done so yet to WoWI or Curse as I have not been able to figure out how to effectively use them (although I am here to broadcast this message, so I do probably owe something to WoWI for allowing this forum . . . we shall see how this goes).

Either way, flame away if you must, but I already know I'm a computer idiot. For me, this is a game and something to enjoy in my spare time, and yes - I need help and simplicity.

I just thought the authors and potential authors here should know that many of us idiots are willing to pay, and are doing so.
Wow. For a change, I've found another WM user besides me that's actually willing to be reasonable. (If there are others, I apologize in advance for not noticing you. I'm blinded by my arrogance.) WoWI is coming out with an updater that is supposed to be just as simple to use as WM was. First, are you willing to at least try it? Second, if you find that it is just as easy, are you willing to make the switch so that you can keep your ease, and WoWI and Curse can keep their bandwidth? If the answer to either of those is "no", why not?

There's no intent to flame here. In fact, you've earned my respect a bit by donating to the authors. (I've no proof of that, but I see no reason not to believe you.) Hopefully, you consider my questions honestly and are willing to give another form of simplicity a try once it happens.


Originally Posted by Vyper View Post
I can't resist. Goodwin's law anyone?
I learned in debate that if I want to win with very little work, I need only to do one of two things: accurately compare my opposition to any of the axis powers from WWII, or show how their position will result in the nuclear holocaust. In spite of Goodwin's law, I usually go with an axis reference because I like the look I get from my opposition when I do that. If they argue with me, they are anti-semites, and if they agree with me, they lose. Either way, they're screwed, and I love it. The biggest issue with intarwebz debates is exactly what my new siggie says below, and I hope I didn't just do that to myself by over-exaggerating an analogy. ><
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Old 04-30-09, 01:24 PM   #1010
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Originally Posted by schmittyd View Post
so here is a warning to Curse and WI - be very careful with your false pander, you are actually breaking the terms of the open source licences by disallowing distribution by third parties. WM, authors and users have the legal right to file class action lawsuits against Curse and WI, which would result in severe financial losses so please reconsider your decision as who will you be helping if you have to close due to your own greed and misconceptions.

Um. Check the law. Copyright and Intellectual property to be specific. You can check the new laws which protect software from reverse engineering etc also. Specifically an author of software has his software automatically copyrighted the instant it is created. Practice states that a copyright notice should be included, but even the absence of that doesn't mean that the author forfieted any copyright rights. It means he/she hasnt granted any of those rights to a third party.

IF WI and Curse wanted to be totally correct with the law, they would get a signed license agreement stating that they had the right to redistribute the software. Without such, basically the sites run at risk of doing something they should not be doing, but a judge may look at it as general practice being acceptable. However, keep in mind if WI or Curse, etc get greedy - Blizzard may put in new requirements for addons that could impact those companies - and we have seen that Blizzard does not want people mandating money for addons.

AS SUCH curses new move to charge you up to 28% of the cost of a WoW subscription will unleash a strom from users of their client, to I suspect Blizzard. Blizzards lawyers I would think will think of some creative way of punishing or controlling such actions, perhaps putting in a clause that any addons can not charge for the addon nor for installation of the addon. In fact I think I will write Blizzard this day about such considering curses gross misconduct and unethical behavior (imho).

Now is a time for WI to shine if they choose to and can get out the client quickly. Lets hope they dont follow the greedy path of curse.
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Old 04-30-09, 01:34 PM   #1011
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Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
Hey now, I'm a pirate, and yet I retain the rights to throw a *****fit at people that try to make money off my work without my permission. The two are not exclusive. There's a big difference between getting something for free (even if they want you to pay for it) and making money off someone else's work (even if it's offered up for free). That's why you'll never see the GPL (or really any other license) attached to my work.
No license, Creative Commons, GPL, whatever you wish. Creative Commons would work best in hindsight but as the saying goes hindsight is always 20/20.

I believe addon authors should get some compensation but I also believe in a system that is not closed. Am I petty thief in the belief that a system with a license like Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative would be bad? I am just a fan of addons and other creative work not being locked down to a single source.

The Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative license is what I use for my work for both my music and images and I am a big fan of it as it allows me to freely share my stuff with the ability to get attributed and no derivative works without my permission.

There is a version for other countries as well so don't mind the Canadian Flag eh.

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Old 04-30-09, 02:59 PM   #1012
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Originally Posted by schmittyd View Post
Hi All,

I would like to start by saying I am a WM user and was very annoyed to find out that Curse and WI blocked WM from downloading. My view on the decision is that in no way was it to protect authors, it was purely a financial motivation. Curse and WI were unhappy that people were using WM to download addons, and not visit their sites which generate revenue by the advertisements appearing on the sites.
How do you know this? Too much assumption and not enough fact.

Furthermore, the complaints that surfaced from Curse and WI that WM did not provide links to the home pages of the mods and donation links was a complete load of crap, if both parties had taken the time to use WM they would have found that by simply by looking in the details pane or right clicking a mod that the menu gives options to 'Visit Official Web Page' or 'Make a Donation' which take the user to the proper web site, whether it be WM, WI, Curse, Wowace or any other web site.
It had to be negotiated with Wowmatrix to add the links, author names, and donate buttons. They refused to at first.

From many posts I have read complaining about the decision most people including myself do actually visit the official web pages to read up on changes or post feedback/bug reports.
You obviously didn't read enough posts otherwise you wouldn't be saying the exact same things that dozens of other ignorant Wowmatrix users said in this thread.

The argument put forward about protecting authors is also misleading, considering that most, if not all mods are provided by a GPL or similar open source licence which generally allow free and open distribution, so here is a warning to Curse and WI - be very careful with your false pander, you are actually breaking the terms of the open source licences by disallowing distribution by third parties. WM, authors and users have the legal right to file class action lawsuits against Curse and WI, which would result in severe financial losses so please reconsider your decision as who will you be helping if you have to close due to your own greed and misconceptions.
FYI: The authors are part of the Curse, WI, and Wowace communities. They have banded together with Curse and Wowinterface against Wowmatrix. Many have emailed Wowmatrix to have their addons removed. (Some get no reply, some don't even get their addons removed.)


Cairenn should reconsider closing this thread. All these posts by ignorant Wowmatrix users are getting really redundant. I mean.. why give them a place to whine? Let them piss and moan about Wowmatrix somewhere else. Let them get their addons from somewhere other than Curse or Wowinterface.
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Old 04-30-09, 03:03 PM   #1013
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Originally Posted by Reversion View Post
No license, Creative Commons, GPL, whatever you wish. Creative Commons would work best in hindsight but as the saying goes hindsight is always 20/20.

I believe addon authors should get some compensation but I also believe in a system that is not closed. Am I petty thief in the belief that a system with a license like Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative would be bad? I am just a fan of addons and other creative work not being locked down to a single source.

The Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative license is what I use for my work for both my music and images and I am a big fan of it as it allows me to freely share my stuff with the ability to get attributed and no derivative works without my permission.

There is a version for other countries as well so don't mind the Canadian Flag eh.
Ever though that the AddOn author wants to lock down where his/her AddOn is distributed? There are many reasons why, users support being a big one. Sure an AddOn author can include links and such inside the AddOn to point to a support page. However, how many users acutally look inside the AddOn's folder? Not many and the ones that do usually know what they are doing in the first place. However 95% of users will never look inside the AddOn folder. Those same users will usually go straight back to wherever they download the AddOn from to post something like "It's broke, fix it". This fragments the support pages plus any bug tracking system an author may use. AddOns are usually written for fun, having to chase down bug reports from umpteen different sites is not fun. In fact is time consuming and in this day, time is precious. There is just not enough of it.

A license that works for music and images usually does not work well for code. Music and images once they are created do not require user support. Code does.

I for once really wish users would stop asking authors to distribute the author's work under a license a user wants. Most AddOns are written to fulfill something that annoyed an author or the author though was a good idea. If users keep annoying authors, those authors may just decide to quit writing those AddOns that the users love. Think about it before you ask release under License X
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Old 04-30-09, 03:56 PM   #1014
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Originally Posted by Lykofos View Post
Ever though that the AddOn author wants to lock down where his/her AddOn is distributed? There are many reasons why, users support being a big one. Sure an AddOn author can include links and such inside the AddOn to point to a support page. However, how many users acutally look inside the AddOn's folder? Not many and the ones that do usually know what they are doing in the first place. However 95% of users will never look inside the AddOn folder. Those same users will usually go straight back to wherever they download the AddOn from to post something like "It's broke, fix it". This fragments the support pages plus any bug tracking system an author may use. AddOns are usually written for fun, having to chase down bug reports from umpteen different sites is not fun. In fact is time consuming and in this day, time is precious. There is just not enough of it.

A license that works for music and images usually does not work well for code. Music and images once they are created do not require user support. Code does.

I for once really wish users would stop asking authors to distribute the author's work under a license a user wants. Most AddOns are written to fulfill something that annoyed an author or the author though was a good idea. If users keep annoying authors, those authors may just decide to quit writing those AddOns that the users love. Think about it before you ask release under License X
Thats a good argument but annoy the users and no one will use if its too restrictive. Remember its users and fans that are the priority, keep them happy and they will keep you happy.

If you want to think about something then think about how many people just stopped using the excess of addons that they may have had with Wowmatrix, I know my move to manual updating due to the whole Curse Premium debacle has seen 30 addons that I enjoy fall off the radar for me because I deemed the effort too much for the benefit. That is 30 addons that I won't think of donating to now and I think in every industry whether it be code or not that "eyeballs = revenue", Firefox is a great example of this as many other examples can be given.

Always remember that at any time person could delete their addons directory and still have a very enjoyable experience.

I'm hoping that the new WoWI updater is a savior in all of this and the modules are well supported and so far it is looking alright, as long as they keep a "premium" version to something of an ad-free state or at least not excessively neutered.
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Old 04-30-09, 04:07 PM   #1015
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I'd jump through as many hoops as needed to get a hold of addons like Auctioneer, [any all-in-one-inventory type mod], Skillet/ATSW, and Carbonite (Quest section) or QuestHelper.


It's within the right of any author to choose where to distribute his work. If an addon is popular enough like Auctioneer or some type of raid compilation like DBM or BigWigs, then people are going to need to download it whether or not it has restrictions.
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Old 04-30-09, 04:33 PM   #1016
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Originally Posted by Spectro View Post
I'd jump through as many hoops as needed to get a hold of addons like Auctioneer, [any all-in-one-inventory type mod], Skillet/ATSW, and Carbonite (Quest section) or QuestHelper.


It's within the right of any author to choose where to distribute his work. If an addon is popular enough like Auctioneer or some type of raid compilation like DBM or BigWigs, then people are going to need to download it whether or not it has restrictions.
Thats only a handful, how bout 150 hoops? I have that many addons (not counting libs and optionals)

I honestly could care less about where you post them, just if you want me to take chances/load up on addons to add more eyeballs then allow me a quick way to update the, officially sanctioned updater.

Before I got fed up with Curse I ran 3 updaters.

I am not telling you what to do nor where to host, I am just giving you perspective of what people may do. If all of you are going to get hurt personally and see me as an attack then you are taking my message the wrong way and my efforts of trying to give you that perspective of the other side or devil's advocate as you will seem more and more futile. So far people have been more inclined to shoot my ideas down then have a nice discussion. Not to mention the defamatory comment against me earlier calling me a petty thief.

Go nuts, upload wherever, do whatever. Clearly I seemed to have stuck my nose into someone's business and they don't seem to like it.

To leave on a good note WoWI has been the best site in all of this debacle, they handled the situation the best they could do with what they had to go against and overly eager ally that was bulling its way through with or without them... in both cases. I applaud WoWI and having the forum for the Minion bookmarked in a quick location as I have high hopes for WoWI to get it right.
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Old 04-30-09, 04:51 PM   #1017
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Originally Posted by Reversion View Post
Thats only a handful, how bout 150 hoops? I have that many addons (not counting libs and optionals)

I honestly could care less about where you post them, just if you want me to take chances/load up on addons to add more eyeballs then allow me a quick way to update the, officially sanctioned updater.

Before I got fed up with Curse I ran 3 updaters.

I am not telling you what to do nor where to host, I am just giving you perspective of what people may do. If all of you are going to get hurt personally and see me as an attack then you are taking my message the wrong way and my efforts of trying to give you that perspective of the other side or devil's advocate as you will seem more and more futile. So far people have been more inclined to shoot my ideas down then have a nice discussion. Not to mention the defamatory comment against me earlier calling me a petty thief.

Go nuts, upload wherever, do whatever. Clearly I seemed to have stuck my nose into someone's business and they don't seem to like it.

To leave on a good note WoWI has been the best site in all of this debacle, they handled the situation the best they could do with what they had to go against and overly eager ally that was bulling its way through with or without them... in both cases. I applaud WoWI and having the forum for the Minion bookmarked in a quick location as I have high hopes for WoWI to get it right.
I'm speaking solely for myself here... I know that I have been very defensive in favor of WoWI since this whole debate started, many times overly-defensive. You have to understand that many of us have come to look at this site as our WoW home-away-from-home. In my case almost litterally so as it's set as my home page lol.
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Old 04-30-09, 04:51 PM   #1018
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Originally Posted by Ne0nguy View Post
Glad to hear this news, wowmatrix could have easily killed both these sites on patch day.
Just wish you could share a little more details about what you did to shut em down.

WowMatrix seems to be working just fine... interesting.
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Old 04-30-09, 04:52 PM   #1019
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Originally Posted by Reversion View Post
Thats a good argument but annoy the users and no one will use if its too restrictive. Remember its users and fans that are the priority, keep them happy and they will keep you happy.
Why do addon users always assume this is true for every addon author? 'Most' addon authors make something for themselves, first and foremost, and THEN if they feel like sharing, they generally do. Not because they're selfish, but because most of the best addons were created because the author wanted something that Blizzard (or any other game that supports addons, or any other program that supports addons, such as Firefox, Photoshop.. many other programs that support addons) didn't provide with the default.

Sure, many authors enjoy a lot of people, enjoying their hard work, but many don't create addons for 'addon users', money, or fame... sometimes they just want something that functions "the way it's supposed to".
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Old 04-30-09, 04:58 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by Penguar View Post
WowMatrix seems to be working just fine... interesting.
As has been made clear before, WoWMatrix has begun crawling WoWUI, and hosting GPL liscensed addons itself. There are still WoWI/Curse exclusive addons which do not work.
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