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Unread 07-23-12, 03:30 AM   #21
suicidalkatt
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Originally Posted by Siku View Post
I don't know, in the final product, when we get a basic and advanced (current options), switching to advanced mode and see i have to click on an advanced button to see texcoords seems kinda redundant.
I haven't looked at the options currently. Perhaps there's already an 'advanced' section?

It'd be a single toggle to enable advanced options across the addon's option tables.
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Unread 07-23-12, 05:51 AM   #22
silverhatred
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Dislikes:
I dislike how timers are now a separate aura that you have to rebuild completely.
-Solution: Just build a timer into the settings of the texture and not make a timer the texture.

I dislike how the aura itself is built around a picture and not a spell/name, ie spell names are just a mere setting not the cornerstone.
-Solution: Back in the old PA, you had one aura that did one thing based around a name. Now with the new if/then activation trigger scenario you can tie a much smarter ai into your auras. However more often than not I will do duplicate settings to several different "textures." Either have the setup based on the name, or have the setup based on an activation. Either way you end up having to do both for everything and it seems like the original "aura" you set up is more like an organizational folder.

There seems to be an extra unnecessary layer between the browser and the textures. I realize that this layer is put there because of timers and charges and stacks as well as multiple triggers on separate auras but there really isn't a need to set up this stuff when you can just source the event triggers.
-Solution: have the "group" of spell events be a level higher than the initial creation, not way deeper in.

I know its still in developement but honestly being able to go in and quickly change/add something new is fundamental to testing this. I love all of the new features and I know I could get used to the new ui, its just the placement and flow of it seems like a skinny bookcase with wide novels.
-Solution: Group the settings more intelligently. For example "style" and "Layout and Positioning" should pretty much be the same catagory since people are going to be doing both of those at once more often than not.

Likes:
You seem to have put quite a bit of work into this and I definitely appreciate that.

Your tutorial is great I would love to see moar once you get the ui worked out.

All of the new options with animations and combining different events is great and I have been wanting something like that for awhile.

Waiting on:
Using the original spell texture automatically.
-Maybe I am just stupid but I couldn't find a way to do this without adding the texture to the folder myself and calling it.

Quicker feedback on aura changes.
-Seeing the texture while making settings to it would be great, still a work in progress I know but it discourages me from doing any testing expecially when the breadcrumb interface is seemingly long. Clicking and dragging around the aura for quick placement is missed. Slidebars as well.

Thats all for now, I really want to see this addon become great in mop and I am posting what I believe to be true. If you need anything clarified let me know.
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Unread 07-23-12, 06:05 AM   #23
N30
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about the new texture scale, seams in advanced mode thry are in px, in simple mode the will be in % like on live version or in px, if they are in px is possible implement a scale switcher (px<=>%) on both mode?
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Unread 07-23-12, 07:58 AM   #24
Meorawr
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Great feedback in general, I'll cover it in hopefully less than thirty paragraphs this time

Originally Posted by suicidalkatt View Post
Interesting! But a nice dropdown menu for a texture set would be awesome! (I haven't tested this release so I have no idea what you've implemented).
There's a texture picking dialog which allows you to preview textures and filter them by set, so it's a bit better than a dropdown

Originally Posted by suicidalkatt View Post
Perhaps a simple 'advanced' button or checkbox to enable some hidden options.
I don't like advanced/basic toggles for small things though. A toggle for just one (or two) settings seems really unnecessary. For all intents and purposes, the 'Style' section of the editor is "done".

I might just add the setting in and see how it feels, realistically texcoords can be handled with just one control.

Originally Posted by Siku View Post
I don't know, in the final product, when we get a basic and advanced (current options), switching to advanced mode and see i have to click on an advanced button to see texcoords seems kinda redundant.
At the moment, we're not entirely sure how many advanced toggles there'll be and where they'll be. Activation has one, and I'm probably adding one to the categories list to filter out half of the stuff. Either that, or I rework the categories list and split it into 'stuff you need to do' at the top, 'stuff you might like to do' in the middle and 'stuff you need a degree in astrophysics to use' at the bottom.

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
<entire post covered below>
Feedback <3
I love you

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
I dislike how timers are now a separate aura that you have to rebuild completely.
-Solution: Just build a timer into the settings of the texture and not make a timer the texture.
Completely agreed on the hate part, but the solution isn't one I particularly want to follow. One idea I'm running to a lot is the idea of 'transmuting' a display. I wouldn't call the feature that in the UI, but the idea is that you'd be able to take an existing display and say 'now create a timer that is linked to this one in almost every respect', and it'd automatically handle things like setting up the activation criteria as well as the sources mechanic for you.

I think by default, 'transmuting' a display would cause the editor to automatically synchronise all relevant settings between the two (so the sources/activation/animations/etc.), but should include options for unlocking parts so that they can be edited manually rather than be constantly updated.

The end result being that you could create a timer/stack counter/whatever from any existing display in one click and not have to worry about redoing the activation conditions, etc. However, if you wanted to, you'd still have the ability to create a custom timer and manually configure it all. Seems like a nice balance to me.

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
I dislike how the aura itself is built around a picture and not a spell/name, ie spell names are just a mere setting not the cornerstone.
-Solution: Back in the old PA, you had one aura that did one thing based around a name. Now with the new if/then activation trigger scenario you can tie a much smarter ai into your auras. However more often than not I will do duplicate settings to several different "textures." Either have the setup based on the name, or have the setup based on an activation. Either way you end up having to do both for everything and it seems like the original "aura" you set up is more like an organizational folder.
I'll start at the end on this one, the aura system right now is an organizational folder. It kind of came into place because there's no pages now (we think they're unnecessary when you can organize stuff into auras). Originally the code didn't even have the concept of auras, but that was changed later in development because the editor would have been a giant pain without some form of organization.

The whole 'style vs. activation' thing comes up a lot in terms of 'which is more important?'. I'd agree that activation is more important, but in terms of navigation it's a lot easier to visually see your displays and say "that's the one I use for tracking my holy power" than it is to mouseover tooltips or remember their positioning.

Duplicating triggers and whatnot sort of overlaps with the first point, the 'transmute display' feature could/should fix that. Additionally I think creating dependencies should be promoted more as a 'basic' feature and as something the user should ideally do, as opposed to an advanced one. From a performance standpoint, dependencies are one of the cheapest trigger types. From an ease of use standpoint, they could be one of the easiest too when I put in their ID picking dialog because as it stands, they don't require you to duplicate triggers.

One feature I've seen a few times is some sort of multi-editing system whereby you could edit multiple things at once, so for instance you could select five texture displays and change their scale and colour in one go as opposed to five. It'd be a lot of work to implement, but it's feasible. Maybe not a 5.0 release thing however, we'd have to see.

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
There seems to be an extra unnecessary layer between the browser and the textures. I realize that this layer is put there because of timers and charges and stacks as well as multiple triggers on separate auras but there really isn't a need to set up this stuff when you can just source the event triggers.
-Solution: have the "group" of spell events be a level higher than the initial creation, not way deeper in.
I'm not sure what this point is covering, I'm afraid. At a stab I'm going to guess it's the Sources system and respond assuming that, but if I'm wrong then feel free to elaborate

I'll make this really clear, I don't like how sources are handled in the UI. Once again it comes to power vs. ease of use, and the sources are sort of like patch 3.0 retribution paladins. They hurt.

The thing is this though, you've currently been forced to live with the 'advanced' activation editor which lets you combine 63 triggers into some silly complex logic at your whim. That's good for power.

The 'basic' one doesn't let you do that, you get a single 'main' trigger and up to one of each 'support' trigger which cover things like "Is mounted", "Is in a battleground" and so on. Functionally, it's the same as the 4.x one just with a few tweaks here and there.

On the subject of editor 'depth', you don't have to go down a level to edit triggers in the basic editor. There's no navigation needed in the basic version, apart from making your way to 'activation'. Hopefully that's what all the basic editors will look like, but we'll evaluate it on a case by case basis.

Sources come in as an advanced feature for saying "timer, this is where you get your timing information from". When it comes to the basic activation editor, we can easily automate this and hide the feature outright (you may have seen the Edit Mode dropdown under the sources section including the option 'automatic').

When it comes to an advanced activation condition, things get hairy simply because a source is designed for taking information from one location, not 63. It can't automatically determine which of your triggers is most important. The best guess it might be able to take is to say "trigger #1 is important, therefore I shall try to use it as a source". The best solution to this would be to allow automatic synchronisation, but make the user decide which trigger is being used for it.

I think the solution to this is to just wait for the basic components and see how it gets handled, I think automatic source creation/syncing is the best route out of this whilst still keeping the system in for some extra power should some crazy scientist need it.

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
I know its still in developement but honestly being able to go in and quickly change/add something new is fundamental to testing this. I love all of the new features and I know I could get used to the new ui, its just the placement and flow of it seems like a skinny bookcase with wide novels.
-Solution: Group the settings more intelligently. For example "style" and "Layout and Positioning" should pretty much be the same catagory since people are going to be doing both of those at once more often than not.
I completely agree on the placement/flow issues in areas, but it's a balancing act of not trying to expose too much at one time while also exposing enough to keep things workable.

Two or so days before the initial release, Style and the Layout categories were merged. I split them to see how much of a difference it'd make, and to be honest I think it works a bit better split. The downside is the Layout category is very 'light' right now, however that might be because the Layouts feature in general is (almost) NYI. In addition, I hate scrollbars and that's what you'd be getting with a lot of the Style editors should I move layout stuff into there.

The thing with the layout system is, ultimately, I don't even want it in the editor. At the moment it's one of those necessary evils because the on-screen previews (as in, over-the-game-world previews) are disabled. Positioning displays simply by drag and drop feels the most natural than using pixels and dropdowns. I'll keep the layout editor in there, but I want the mouse interaction with displays to be able to do just as much as the editor would.

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
You seem to have put quite a bit of work into this and I definitely appreciate that.
If you're saying this just to avoid a thirty paragraph response, then no need, only people who don't provide useful feedback get that treatment

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
Your tutorial is great I would love to see moar once you get the ui worked out.
Tutorials will be worked on toward the end, for obvious reasons. Hopefully I can find a good spot for the ingame tutorials that isn't inside of the editor.

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
All of the new options with animations and combining different events is great and I have been wanting something like that for awhile.
General feature progression. We're not just going to sit in the stone age

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
Waiting on:
Using the original spell texture automatically.
-Maybe I am just stupid but I couldn't find a way to do this without adding the texture to the folder myself and calling it.
Again, sources feature. One source type is "Texture". As a source is basically "get <x> information from <y>", you can configure it to say "get the texture information from <y>" where <y> is a location like a buff/debuff. There's a lack of sources in the current release, we'll fix that soon.

Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
Quicker feedback on aura changes.
-Seeing the texture while making settings to it would be great, still a work in progress I know but it discourages me from doing any testing expecially when the breadcrumb interface is seemingly long. Clicking and dragging around the aura for quick placement is missed. Slidebars as well.
This is mostly because the on-screen previews are disabled, as I've said. We'll be reimplementing them very soon. As for slidebars, I assume this is for selecting things like textures? We might just add mousewheel functionality if that's the case.

On a side note, how would you feel about a small hotkey for reducing the opacity of the editor to help view the main screen? Say, you mouseover the editor and press ctrl and it'll reduce the opacity of the window by ~75%.

Originally Posted by N30 View Post
about the new texture scale, seams in advanced mode thry are in px, in simple mode the will be in % like on live version or in px, if they are in px is possible implement a scale switcher (px<=>%) on both mode?
At the moment it's all pixels all the way, simply because pixels let us merge two settings into one (the distortion setting in 4.x was the same as pixels, but incredibly stupid). If I put in scale, it'd be as a separate option as opposed to a simple switch. I can see why it's useful, and I've already been considering it.

On an unrelated note, I'm thinking of visually marking the editor categories in some way after creating a new display to assist in telling people what they need to do next. So you create a new display and the 'activation' section is highlighted, or has an icon, or something. Maybe a tutorial-style popup telling you what to do next. In addition, some other form of quick navigation between categories seems pretty required at this point. Ideas welcome, so long as they're constructive

~25 paragraphs, success!

Last edited by Meorawr : 07-23-12 at 08:11 AM.
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Unread 07-25-12, 10:41 AM   #25
Meorawr
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Expect the next alpha release on sunday/monday-ish.

Last edited by Meorawr : 07-27-12 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Y U PATCH BETA!?
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Unread 07-28-12, 10:19 AM   #26
N30
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Originally Posted by Meorawr View Post
Expect the next alpha release on sunday/monday-ish.
a lil sneek-peek on new thing in the releas? XP
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Unread 07-28-12, 10:22 AM   #27
Meorawr
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Things that are done:
  • 70% done 'simple' activation editor.
  • Aggro trigger
  • Combo point trigger
  • Equipped Items/Equipment Set trigger
  • Pet trigger
  • Runes trigger
  • Dropdown tooltips
  • On-screen previews should be done by tomorrow
  • A few backend changes to make adding more features a bit easier

Things that might make it:
  • More trigger types
  • More source types (not been able to start on these yet I'm afraid)
  • Style editor for the Model display
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Unread 07-28-12, 10:46 AM   #28
Meorawr
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Sure, full trigger status atm:
  • Aggro: Implemented
  • ComboPoints: Implemented
  • Dependency: Implemented
  • Display State: Implemented
  • Equipment: Implemented, missing GUI
  • GTFO: Implemented
  • KillingBlow: Implemented
  • Pet: Implemented
  • PetStance: Implemented
  • Runes: Implemented
  • SpellAlert: Not yet implemented
  • SpellOffCooldown: Implemented
  • Stacks: Not yet implemented
  • Stance: Implemented. Includes support for presences/seals too
  • TimeRemaining: Implemented, but will be replaced soon
  • Totems: Not yet implemented
  • Tracking: Not yet implemented
  • UnitAura: Implemented
  • UnitAuraType: Not yet implemented
  • UnitData: Not yet implemented
  • UnitHealth: Implemented
  • UnitMatch: Not yet implemented
  • UnitPower: Implemented. Added support for all the new power types too
  • UnitPowerAlt: Not yet implemented
  • WeaponEnchant: Not yet implemented

You'll note a lot of the new ones say they have no GUI, that's not a major issue because most of them have fairly simple options that take about 10 minutes to expose and test. The ones with major GUI requirements are Equipment and Runes.

As for custom triggers, I finished the code needed to implement them but I've not exposed them to the editor just yet.

If there's a trigger present in 4.x that you think is missing and needs to be implemented, just say. However note that ActionUsable is currently planned to be scrapped.

The Runes GUI is completely different to the one in 4.x, so you don't need to bother with that abysmal "DDUUBB" mess. Instead it's literally point and click for rune selection.

So here's a screenshot of the Shaped runes type, a Runes trigger with this type will activate only if you have the chosen runes available in the exact slots.

In that screenshot you'll see that in slot #1 I'm matching either a Blood or Death rune, in slot #2 I'm matching an inactive death rune, slot #3 is an ignored slot (so any rune regardless of state), and #4-6 are the same as #2, but for other rune types.

The other match type for Runes is Shapeless, which activates whenever you have the specified runes available regardless of slot. There's a special case for death runes with Shapeless in that you can say "this death rune must have replaced a rune of <x> type", but that's optional.

Last edited by Meorawr : 07-28-12 at 06:49 PM.
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Unread 07-28-12, 06:31 PM   #29
soulyouth
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Not a fan of the new powa.
I loved how simple the old powa was, type the spell name, tick what you want, pick a aura and your done, this is back and forth, back and forth through menus.

Not a fan of this at all, was not broken in it's old form, why u try to fix ?
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Unread 07-28-12, 06:48 PM   #30
Meorawr
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Originally Posted by soulyouth View Post
Not a fan of the new powa.
I loved how simple the old powa was, type the spell name, tick what you want, pick a aura and your done, this is back and forth, back and forth through menus.

Not a fan of this at all, was not broken in it's old form
Old form had good things and bad things, no arguments there. At the moment you're using the advanced editors and stuff, which are extremely rough around the edges still. Wait a couple more days and you'll get the basic ones which are a lot less clicky than the advanced ones.

Originally Posted by soulyouth View Post
why u try to fix ?
Because the old UI wouldn't support the new features in any sane way.
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Unread 07-28-12, 08:32 PM   #31
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All of you who are complaining about the new UI setup (which, btw, still isn't finished remember) are *used* to the old way. You can get used to a new way, too.

Personally, I always used to find the old PowerAuras UI too confusing/cumbersome to bother with. Several times over the course of a few years I tried it and always gave up. I started using WeakAuras when it came out because the UI was completely different.

To each his own. Just remember to keep discussion civil and polite on these forums with constructive criticism.
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Unread 07-29-12, 12:21 AM   #32
soulyouth
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Originally Posted by Meorawr View Post
Old form had good things and bad things, no arguments there. At the moment you're using the advanced editors and stuff, which are extremely rough around the edges still. Wait a couple more days and you'll get the basic ones which are a lot less clicky than the advanced ones.



Because the old UI wouldn't support the new features in any sane way.
Cool as long as it has the option to use own spell icon in the aura's and I can "import" (I use that loosely) my old aura's over then I don't mind learning a new UI. (if like you said there is a easier one coming)
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Unread 07-29-12, 07:14 AM   #33
Meorawr
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Yeah, importing from an old version will definitely be supported, it's just a matter of getting around to it right now.
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Unread 07-29-12, 01:28 PM   #34
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Alpha 2 uploaded. Changelog covers the important bits. Most of the changes covered in the discussions in this thread are still not implemented, simply because time isn't infinite

Edit:

Alpha 3 uploaded, I've had to disable the on-screen previews because of the stupid amount of errors/bugs I completely missed with them (for instance, errors when creating displays, deleting them, etc.). They'll be re-enabled soon.

Yet Another Awesome Edit:

Alpha 4 uploaded, re-enabled the previews after fixing the most obvious errors. Please report any others that you find

Last edited by Meorawr : 07-30-12 at 09:06 AM.
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Unread 07-31-12, 05:11 AM   #35
N30
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Originally Posted by Meorawr View Post
Alpha 4 uploaded, re-enabled the previews after fixing the most obvious errors. Please report any others that you find
Code:
Message: ...rface\AddOns\PowerAuras\Types\Displays\Interface.lua:11: Display class 'Texture' does not exist.
Time: 07/31/12 13:09:57
Count: 1
Stack: [C]: in function `error'
...rface\AddOns\PowerAuras\Types\Displays\Interface.lua:11: in function `GetDisplayClass'
...AddOns\PowerAurasOptions\Widgets\Editor\Displays.lua:337: in function `RefreshNodes'
...AddOns\PowerAurasOptions\Widgets\Editor\Displays.lua:111: in function <...AddOns\PowerAurasOptions\Widgets\Editor\Displays.lua:92>
Interface\AddOns\PowerAurasOptions\Widgets\Basic.lua:31: in function `?'
Interface\AddOns\PowerAuras\Main.lua:66: in function `OnOptionsEvent'
Interface\AddOns\PowerAurasOptions\Variables.lua:232: in function `SetCurrentAura'
...rface\AddOns\PowerAurasOptions\Widgets\Workspace.lua:357: in function <...rface\AddOns\PowerAurasOptions\Widgets\Workspace.lua:351>

Locals: (*temporary) = "Display class 'Texture' does not exist."
seams is still bugged
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Unread 07-31-12, 06:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by N30 View Post
seams is still bugged
I should really make sure I'm packing the right changeset next time. Fixing it now >.>

I blame Mondays.

Last edited by Meorawr : 07-31-12 at 06:33 AM.
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Unread 07-31-12, 08:43 AM   #37
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all I'm saying is that the nav gui should flow in one direction in a logical sequence.

again, you can easily accommodate all users by coding the navigation in the simplest form.

the version we all know & love is a very good reference for keeping it simple, and not completely doing a 180 deg turn into who knows what direction.
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Unread 07-31-12, 09:13 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by yodawhip View Post
all I'm saying is that the nav gui should flow in one direction in a logical sequence.

again, you can easily accommodate all users by coding the navigation in the simplest form.

the version we all know & love is a very good reference for keeping it simple, and not completely doing a 180 deg turn into who knows what direction.
I'm curious as to what the problematic difference between the two is though.

Live:
  • You select aura from the browser window.
  • You navigate to the type of thing you want to edit. If you want to change the timer/stacks counter, you still need to enter a tab for it.
  • You use controls in a bloody massive editor window that you've gotten used to over the past <time of usage>.

Now:
  • You select aura from browser window.
  • You pick the display you want to control. We can't remove this step, because timers/stacks are 'first class' now.
  • You pick the type of thing you want to change.
  • You edit it.

I see, at most, two more steps. That's not a whole lot. Descriptive feedback would kinda help pinpoint the issue here, at the moment the main thing is there's too many levels of depth to navigate though for the advanced editors, and one other possible issue is having to go up/down a level to change sections (such as from style to activation).

Apologies if I'm being a bit rough in terms of given feedback here, but at the moment it's somewhat like trying to find my way through a maze while blindfolded, and the directions I'm being given are "don't walk into a wall".

I'll try and work on something tonight and post a couple of screenshots later on (if I get it all hooked up). Feedback would be appreciated

Last edited by Meorawr : 07-31-12 at 09:29 AM.
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Unread 07-31-12, 10:37 AM   #39
N30
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btw .... i still have no clue how copy aure in the new version XD
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Unread 07-31-12, 12:34 PM   #40
KysenMurrin
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I was playing around in the Animations section, not really knowing what I was doing, and managed to completely break the addon. In Animations -> Repeat -> Channel 1 -> Action, I had added a sequence then removed it, and I then accidentally selected "Delete Action". Deleting the only action immediately provoked an "Action ID -1 does not resolve to a valid action" error, and the addon became totally unusable until I deleted my saved variables (I could open the Auras/Layouts window but do nothing beyond that without returning that error).

Obviously it's early beta, and protecting from user idiocy comes after getting the basics working right, but it seemed like the kind of thing that could slip under the radar if no one else is stupid enough to delete the only Action, heh.

*

As to the new interface, I like the direction it's going, but it does have a bit too much moving up and down through sections. Having to go back to the top level menu to then enter another submenu, rather than having a tabbed interface or an always-visible sidebar menu where you can access any part with one click, does make a big difference in how using this feels (it's the most annoying thing about the Dungeon Journal, too). Personally I'd favour a sidebar menu, if that was possible.

Last edited by KysenMurrin : 07-31-12 at 12:39 PM.
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