Carbonite 5.04

[DJ Particle]

Originally Posted by Kreelor But, just like many other people here, I've been frustrated and have wondered why neither he nor anybody else he is associated with (related to this addon, website, etc.) has not posted any kind of statement (sooner, even a long time ago!) which could have averted the confusion, frustration, and fears that many of us users have had.

This here is the main crux of the issue.

This is why many believed the project was abandoned.

This is why Rythal's fan update exists.

If we had only gotten a single answer message to the countless "Will there be Carbonite 5 for MoP?" questions the board has had all summer long, this situation would never have blown up like this.

[jeffy162]

Originally Posted by Draven006 FOURTH. Rythal---------- PLEASE make your own addon ... use your own code, the maps do not belong to carbonite, they belong to the game. strip out all the junk that carbonite is using, and make a nice streamline addon. if you are worried about the questing DB, maybe make something that players can upload quests that they have completed and make it a "Fan enhanced" addon. I say make a posting for features that players would want to use in "YOUR" addon, or even make separate "Modules" that we can choose what we want.

(Post quote edited for just the information I wanted, then I made it bold, italicized and underlined it.)

Just so you know (if you didn't already): That's how Carbonite works. However, apparently, not too many people uploaded their SV's so the data base could be more complete. If you doubt me, just have a look at the very top "sticky" in the "Carbonite Database/Quests" forum.

[Serra44]

Originally Posted by Kreelor Please, don't cast stones unless you, yourself, have never failed to meet the expectations of others. Neither you nor I know what is working in his heart, mind, and spirit. Don't be so quick to judge.

My beef is not with the fact that the good man has other priorities in his life. Nor with the fact that he didn't find the time to patch his addon. We can't expect him to jump at every minor patch, especially since he's not actively playing the game anymore.

My problem is with the way he reacted. Basically saying: 'the addon is mine and get your filthy hands off it'.

Rythal has done nothing to take away any credit from the original devs. Nor has he ever claimed any rights to the addon or any changes he made. he even encouraged people to donate to the original authors.
He was purely trying to help out, and has made very many Carbonite users very happy in the process. He is the reason people are still using Carbonite after the patch, because without his changes, it was useless.

And the response of the original authors to this hard work of his is: 'get your grubby hands of my addon, i'm undoing all the (good) work you did and release my own buggy version instead.' Now THAT is what I have a problem with.

There is no excuse for rudeness. It doesn't take any more time to be polite than to be a arse.

[Kreelor]

Originally Posted by DJ Particle This here is the main crux of the issue.

You don't have to explain the 'main crux' of the issue to me. I understand it completely!

[DJ Particle]

Originally Posted by Kreelor You don't have to explain the 'main crux' of the issue to me. I understand it completely!

I know... but there are still some that don't -.-

[Kreelor]

Originally Posted by Serra44 My problem is with the way he reacted. Basically saying: 'the addon is mine and get your filthy hands off it'.

It's his addon. He and his team developed it. He managed it quite well for a long time without fail. He owns the rights to it.

Where do you come off saying in effect that "I use that addon and I demand that he works on it, whether he wants to, or not!"? Believe me, I understand your point, but the attitude of many people on this forum is far worse than what you're accusing him of.

Originally Posted by Serra44 Rythal has done nothing to take away any credit from the original devs. Nor has he ever claimed any rights to the addon or any changes he made. he even encouraged people to donate to the original authors.

My post had NOTHING TO SAY OR TO DO WITH RYTHAL! I did NOT demean Rythal in any way. I, probably more than you, appreciate what he did! Don't try to side-track my topic by bringing someone else into it. I said what I wanted to say. You are free to start your own topic to vent, if you want to. But, it seems to me that enough has been vented already. Just don't start with me!!!

[skyesfury]

Originally Posted by Kreelor It's his addon. He and his team developed it. He managed it quite well for a long time without fail. He owns the rights to it. Where do you come off saying in effect that "I use that addon and I demand that he works on it, whether he wants to, or not!"? Believe me, I understand your point, but the attitude of many people on this forum is far worse than what you're accusing him of. My post had NOTHING TO SAY OR TO DO WITH RYTHAL! I did NOT demean Rythal in any way. I, probably more than you, appreciate what he did! Don't try to side-track my topic by bringing someone else into it. I said what I wanted to say. You are free to start your own topic to vent, if you want to. But, it seems to me that enough has been vented already. Just don't start with me!!!

According to the website, he forfeited "rights" to it last year.

And no one here is demanding he works on it whether he wants to or not. We have issue with how he treated Rythal. If you were loading groceries into your car and some stranger willingly assisted you and then politely put the buggy/shopping cart into the holding area, would you chew him out because "THOSE IS MY GROCERIES!"? That's what the authors did to Rythal. A free fan update, with Rythal saying "please don't send me money, send it to the proper authors", to which the proper authors then told him he's a d*ck. Authors, I might add, that A) don't even play WoW anymore and B) don't even keep up with the news about patches. I'm always amazed that someone can find a way to defend such abhorrent behavior.

You can't play "hands off" when you're talking about the way the authors treated Rythal. Just not the way things work.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by skyesfury According to the website, he forfeited "rights" to it last year.

[schizophrena]

Originally Posted by skyesfury According to the website, he forfeited "rights" to it last year. And no one here is demanding he works on it whether he wants to or not. We have issue with how he treated Rythal. If you were loading groceries into your car and some stranger willingly assisted you and then politely put the buggy/shopping cart into the holding area, would you chew him out because "THOSE IS MY GROCERIES!"? That's what the authors did to Rythal. A free fan update, with Rythal saying "please don't send me money, send it to the proper authors", to which the proper authors then told him he's a d*ck. Authors, I might add, that A) don't even play WoW anymore and B) don't even keep up with the news about patches. I'm always amazed that someone can find a way to defend such abhorrent behavior. You can't play "hands off" when you're talking about the way the authors treated Rythal. Just not the way things work.

First of all, the authors have stated that they will tell the community when they give up their rights on the add on - not a minute before than do they "forfeit" their rights. If you are trying to talk about the copyright/trademark, go to the appropriate thread and debate it there (good luck).

Next - your grocery statement makes no sense in this situation. Rythal was very honorable in how he dealt with the fan update and continued to deal with it. The authors restated their opinion that they didn't want anyone working on their material, as is their right. For example, Blizzard has WoW - if people create a private server and load WoW on and add things into the game or modify - this is not something blizzard wants to see and they have every right to tell people not to do it. Yet, do we see a huge outcry from everyone here saying Blizzard is mean and is a <insert your expletives here>.

Lastly, I'm always amazed how many people with horrid behavior and entitlement attitude show up on these forums immediately after a patch and start demanding things or are surprised by the authors. I find no fault with what they said - they have not named (or called out) Rythal and have not berated him like everyone seems to make it out to be.

[skyesfury]

Originally Posted by Cairenn

Nothing facepalm about it.

"Copyright (c) 2007-2011 Carbon Based Creations, LLC" is pretty clear. 2011. And unless an official copyright was registered, it's no longer "copyrighted".

You can throw the tag on there, but good luck using that "passive copyright" addendum in court on something like this. Maybe if it were a literary work or a widely used consumer product that isn't reliant on another product, but not this.

[schizophrena]

Skyesfury, please go to the copyright thread to talk about copyright. This thread is not for it and it has been severely debated in the other thread and doesn't need to be addressed here.

[skyesfury]

Originally Posted by schizophrena Next - your grocery statement makes no sense in this situation. Rythal was very honorable in how he dealt with the fan update and continued to deal with it. The authors restated their opinion that they didn't want anyone working on their material, as is their right. For example, Blizzard has WoW - if people create a private server and load WoW on and add things into the game or modify - this is not something blizzard wants to see and they have every right to tell people not to do it. Yet, do we see a huge outcry from everyone here saying Blizzard is mean and is a <insert your expletives here>.

The grocery analogy is very apt here. Rythal did something, for free, out of kindness to the community (offered his fan update) and the authors (said to send the donations to them, not to himself) and they crapped on him. It's very accurate.

Originally Posted by schizophrena Lastly, I'm always amazed how many people with horrid behavior and entitlement attitude show up on these forums immediately after a patch and start demanding things or are surprised by the authors. I find no fault with what they said - they have not named (or called out) Rythal and have not berated him like everyone seems to make it out to be.

You throw around the word entitlement, but you have no idea what it means. It has nothing to do with people's disgust at how the author(s) treated Rythal. No one is demanding anything of the authors. We're standing up and saying how they acted is not acceptable, that it's shameful and downright wrong. Considering that Rythal is the one that made the fan update, there was no need to use his name. It was clear to anyone with two brain cells to rub together who they were talking about. You need to go read the post that inflamed so many people before you start making claims that you're clearly uninformed on.

[schizophrena]

Originally Posted by skyesfury The grocery analogy is very apt here. Rythal did something, for free, out of kindness to the community (offered his fan update) and the authors (said to send the donations to them, not to himself) and they crapped on him. It's very accurate. You throw around the word entitlement, but you have no idea what it means. It has nothing to do with people's disgust at how the author(s) treated Rythal. No one is demanding anything of the authors. We're standing up and saying how they acted is not acceptable, that it's shameful and downright wrong. Considering that Rythal is the one that made the fan update, there was no need to use his name. It was clear to anyone with two brain cells to rub together who they were talking about. You need to go read the post that inflamed so many people before you start making claims that you're clearly uninformed on.

As to the grocery analogy - some people do not like being helped. When I was a young lad and worked at a grocery store - I have had people who denied my help when I went to ask them if they wanted help loading in the bags into their car or put their cart away for them. They wanted to do it themselves - for whatever reason it may be, it's not my place to tell them they can't say "no" or how they can say no.

As to the whole entitlement issue - it stemmed from someone demanding that Carbonite hand off their creation to someone like Rythal because the users are basically entitled to having an up to date and running addon (which we, the community, may have the privilege - not the right to use). You are correct in the fact that the entitlement debate isn't directly related to Rthal, however it is related to Carbonite's post lots of people are so upset about. Please re-read the post (copied below, because I took the time to find it again and re-read it). Darkmalux is stating his opinion that if you don't have time to fix an addon - than you do not publish an addon. That is akin to a demand or an attempted statement of "fact" to which Carbonite responded.

Finally, I'm standing up here saying that I completely understand where Carbonite could be coming from. I do not find it an offensive statement, but one that they have made before and have to reiterate once again because people keep questioning them. The fact is, even after that statement, people are still calling for them to hand down the project and give it up freely. Why not just let Carbonite decide when they make that decision (as they have told us before they would when they make that decision) and instead of yelling and raising pitchforks and torches demanding them to do a specific action, those who want to leave just leave. A lot of the rest of us are willing to wait patiently and hope they get more time - or someone else creates a new addon from scratch that does better than Carbonite.

==============
Originally Posted by Darkmalux View Post
I've been following this since 5.04. And I for one am extremely happy with what Rythal did for you. Which was fix YOUR addon and I read this entire thread and not once did you thank him. Not once did you thank the people here for their support of you. Honestly your answers seem smug and condescending. If you no longer play wow, or you cannot keep up with supporting this addon, or you cannot even pay enough attention to the fact there is a LONG AWAITED patch and xpack (which you should have known about), THEN DON'T DEVELOP THE ADD ON. Give it to somebody else to continue to work on. There are several people who were more then happy to step up and continue the work on the addon. I wonder how much money you made from us while you were not even knowing there was a patch? This is not a troll I am not attempting to flame etc I'm just stating how I feel. It's time we stop making excuses for these people who could care less about the people who use their products. If you have a Job, and you are too busy or if you don't play anymore THEN DON'T PUBLISH AN ADDON. Thank You.
-----------
Carbonite response:
It is our addon. We did not ask, nor do we want someone else modding it.

I won't tell you to work for free or give your property away, so please don't tell us what we should do with our property.

I think my answers have been direct and to the point, but that is just my opinion.
==============

[Destori]

Not that it matters but here goes...

I have enjoyed Carbonite for a very long time. Started using it soon after getting WoW, and it changed the entire game play for me. The bottom line to all of this for me is I can either continue with Carbonite, or I can find other addons. The choices are completely mine. That is the beauty of all of this. We have the choice, just as the devs, Rythal and all the users.

My choice will be to always research and find what works best for me and my game playing style.

Thank you to Carbonite and Rythal. They have both fulfilled my needs and I appreciate those who have the talent to create things that obviously so many needed, wanted and received.

Thank you!

[Chmee]

Originally Posted by skyesfury Nothing facepalm about it. "Copyright (c) 2007-2011 Carbon Based Creations, LLC" is pretty clear. 2011. And unless an official copyright was registered, it's no longer "copyrighted".

Go away. Don't come back until you know, fully understand, and are licensed to practice copyright law.

[skyesfury]

Originally Posted by schizophrena As to the grocery analogy - some people do not like being helped. When I was a young lad and worked at a grocery store - I have had people who denied my help when I went to ask them if they wanted help loading in the bags into their car or put their cart away for them. They wanted to do it themselves - for whatever reason it may be, it's not my place to tell them they can't say "no" or how they can say no.

There's a drastic difference between someone who does not like to be helped and disrespecting someone when they do help you. I don't always like to be helped, either. But when someone does help me, even when I did not want or ask for their help, I don't tell them they're a bad person or be disrespectful to them. That's just being a sh*tty person.

Originally Posted by schizophrena As to the whole entitlement issue - it stemmed from someone demanding that Carbonite hand off their creation to someone like Rythal because the users are basically entitled to having an up to date and running addon (which we, the community, may have the privilege - not the right to use). You are correct in the fact that the entitlement debate isn't directly related to Rthal, however it is related to Carbonite's post lots of people are so upset about. Please re-read the post (copied below, because I took the time to find it again and re-read it). Darkmalux is stating his opinion that if you don't have time to fix an addon - than you do not publish an addon. That is akin to a demand or an attempted statement of "fact" to which Carbonite responded.

That's not entitlement. That's asking the authors to do what's in the best interest for the add on and the fans of the add on. I can't go so far as to say it's "what's right", but it's far from entitlement. That word gets thrown around for most trivial reasons these days. The only people that are saying anyone is "entitled to having an up to date" add on are the people trying to make the mature and reasonable fans look bad. Some of the more the emotionally driven posts have "demanded" they hand it off, but I've found most of those didn't happen until AFTER the authors made their disrespectful post, stating that they no longer play WoW or even knew of a patch. Should the posts have been worded a bit less "demanding"? I won't argue with that. But surely you can understand how dismissed we felt when we saw that. They came across with the attitude of apathy toward not just the add on, but the fans as well. That they updated is great and all, but that doesn't excuse the what they said toward Rythal or that they practically admitted they don't care about the add on anymore.

Originally Posted by schizophrena Finally, I'm standing up here saying that I completely understand where Carbonite could be coming from. I do not find it an offensive statement, but one that they have made before and have to reiterate once again because people keep questioning them. The fact is, even after that statement, people are still calling for them to hand down the project and give it up freely. Why not just let Carbonite decide when they make that decision (as they have told us before they would when they make that decision) and instead of yelling and raising pitchforks and torches demanding them to do a specific action, those who want to leave just leave. A lot of the rest of us are willing to wait patiently and hope they get more time - or someone else creates a new addon from scratch that does better than Carbonite.

No one is debating that it's "their add on". What people are miffed about is how they reacted to Rythal's fan update in addition to them not even playing WoW or even knowing about the patch. Surely you can see how that comes across as "they've abandoned the add on". I've seen a lot of add ons abandoned over the years. The authors that never told the fans they've abandoned it weren't thought of very highly. Those that said to the fans "Hey, not playing wow anymore. just wanted to let yall know" ALWAYS received overwhelming positive feedback. Sometimes the author would even come back and reply again or choose one of the volunteers offering to take over the add on to handle it. No one, when they're being calm and rational, is demanding they hand it off. In fact, I've seen more requests (not demands) that they add Rythal to the team so he work on it in an official capacity than I've seen requests (and demands) that they just pass it on. It says a lot that the "official" update reversed a lot of the fixes that the fan update made. I've seen several posts over the years about things breaking that weren't fixed until Rythal's fan update. Things that were re-broken with the official update. The only pitchfork raising that's been going on is by people in an emotional state when they post.

I don't know how else to put all that. If you still can't see it, then I guess there's nothing else for us to discuss. Several people have pointed out the same things and in every case you've blindly defended their abhorrent behavior.

[schizophrena]

Originally Posted by skyesfury Surely you can see how that comes across as "they've abandoned the add on".

Yes, I can see how some would believe that comes across as "they've abandoned the addon" - but when they are here, have provided an edit, and said they do not want to abandon it, does that really show they intend on abandoning the addon? I can't say that.

Originally Posted by skyesfury I don't know how else to put all that. If you still can't see it, then I guess there's nothing else for us to discuss. Several people have pointed out the same things and in every case you've blindly defended their abhorrent behavior.

Apparently I am not seeing the same posts that you guys are talking about how they reacted to Rythals update. If you are referring to a post by Fataal that is not the one I quoted previously - then please link/show it. Honestly, the one that Fataal posted is straight to the point and has no degrading tone with how I read it.

As to "Doing what is in the best interest for the addon and the fans of the addon" is forgetting one key important fact. The person who holds creative license over the addon gets to determine that and we shouldn't even suggest what should be done until they come to us asking what they should do. Suggesting it is typically a selfish behavior in one aspect or another.

If you have a child, and I start saying that you should feed the child only vegan (or a pure meat diet), then 20 others in the neighborhood start saying it - that doesn't make it in the best interest for your child. It could be detrimental for all you know. In addition - how would you like your neighbors telling, or requesting, you to change your child even though it is not a point you ever brought up to them (meaning you never asked them about what food to feed the child)? I think most people would find it quite offensive and would lash out, not something I have seen Fataal do.

Not everyone understands financial partnerships or that Carbonite is a financial partnership - it is not just up to Havok and Fataal. They have, I assume, a silent partner who put up funds, the decision may not be theirs to make. Unlike a lot of the addons now available, this addon was created by a company (partnership), for profit, not just for the pure enjoyment of coding to make a game better.

Again, I don't think any of the grief (requesting/demanding the author's to do something with their addon) is needed - they have already told us that when the day to give the addon up, they will let us know. Someone has always been able to create an addon better then Carbonite, no one has yet been willing to do such for the public.

Let me finish with this quote from Fataal that I think puts things into perspective as to where Fataal is coming from - and the grief that a majority of the vocal community is putting him through (and thus proving his wife true).

Originally Posted by carboniteaddon I work on Carbonite because I want to see it stay alive and because people get enjoyment from it. My wife thinks it is not worth the grief, but I carry on. I have said it before, if you want to donate for whatever reason, then do so. If you don't, then don't. That is your choice. Expect nothing in return, except for our thanks. God has always taken care of me and continues to, so I don't 'need' the money now, but I'm sure we can put it to some use.

[Thamien]

please please someone send me the zipped patch before they released this ****ty "update" and i will love you forever bentondestruction@sbcglobal.net

[asmodej86]

Guys, please give a link to download a version with a working card or send to email asmodej.mail@gmail.com thanks in advance.

[Maggz]

ok please remember this is an addon trouble/issue thread not a copywrite thread, besides posting something they havent updated since 2011 means nothing aside from the fact they HAVENT UPDATED A WEBSITE EITHER. Stop trolling people over something so trivial. If your having issues with this addon keep posting your issues that author may or maynot respond. It is thier perogotive to update fix patch or burn thier own work.