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Unread 11-07-12, 11:03 AM   #21
JimJoBlue
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Couldn't of said it better myself.

I've been watching this thread and till now I have refrained from replying.
In fact I have written a reply about 5 times now and erased it because I didn't want to stoop to his level and flame.

Edit* mjumnito posted the same time as me.
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Unread 11-07-12, 11:15 AM   #22
mjumnito
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Originally Posted by JimJoBlue View Post
Couldn't of said it better myself.

I've been watching this thread and till now I have refrained from replying.
In fact I have written a reply about 5 times now and erased it because I didn't want to stoop to his level and flame.

Edit* mjumnito posted the same time as me.

Great minds think alike, thats why
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Unread 11-07-12, 01:22 PM   #23
patrick51
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Originally Posted by mjumnito View Post
Couldn't have said it better myself.

@patrick51 rather than trying to beat down on the one person who stepped up when it was needed hows about offering a hand in moving things forward? Something about bee's and honey come to mind here. Besides all that, you would look like less of a dick to the supporters. Find a solution to the problem and not be a part of the problem. and since you said one would assume that you know that fixing somebody elses code takes time and can be a real pain in the ass to put it bluntly.
And i am sorry if i come off as a dick, That is just the way i am. I am a thing person not a people person i would rather spend my days with machines then people.

I understand he is doing the best he can. I will try not to sound like a dick . Have you ever asked your self why no one else has designed a map as nice as carbonite. In all these years you would think someone would have done it. The answer really is The only real way to get the map to work,look and act the way it does and as well as it does is to write the code as a self contained program just like the code is now. . The programmers that designed carbonite used real LUA code and it is very beautiful code. The coding is very professional. There are many highly talented add on authors out there. But most of them are not professional programmers that could sit down and write complex code without using pre made libraries or one of the many tools that help design the code..

The carbonite code contains everything needed to make it work without any outside libraries the reason why it is so big.. Each piece of the program is highly dependent on the others pieces to work. properly with that said.

If the end goal is to break it into pieces it would be best to start from scratch then try to separate the code and honestly if in the end you want the map to work look and act like carbonite does now.. It is going to have to be hard coded just like it is now.

I am in the process of fixing the quest data base for my wife and kids. If He would like a copy after i am done removing all the old quests and adding in the new ones you all are welcome to it.

Last edited by patrick51 : 11-07-12 at 01:26 PM.
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Unread 11-07-12, 02:35 PM   #24
mjumnito
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Originally Posted by patrick51 View Post
And i am sorry if i come off as a dick, That is just the way i am. I am a thing person not a people person i would rather spend my days with machines then people.
<Snip>
I am in the process of fixing the quest data base for my wife and kids. If He would like a copy after i am done removing all the old quests and adding in the new ones you all are welcome to it.
I can understand preferring things over people. Hell I even get the coming off as a dick once in a while, we've all been there at one time or another. All that being said, thanks for working on the quest
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Unread 11-07-12, 05:08 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by patrick51 View Post
And i am sorry if i come off as a dick, That is just the way i am.
Not an excuse. I've read all of your posts in this thread, and all I can do is sit here with my jaw on the floor thinking "wow".

Rythal, continue doing what you're doing. Carbonite works decent enough right now to get through leveling. You only recently stepped up to the plate and offered to take things over, so I'm personally not expecting perfection at this point in time. I am eternally grateful for the hard work you've done thus far, and you have my unending support and patience while you continue working to make Carbonite the kick-ass addon that it's meant to be.
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Unread 11-08-12, 07:01 PM   #26
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I do understand his anger, and i'm sure he's not the only one... I did ask people what feature they wanted added more.

But that was before I really had a chance to look through things, and as it stands doing quests first would mean doing the work twice, once now to get it working with the current carbonite, and then again a second time when I get to the quests overhaul.
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Unread 11-08-12, 07:57 PM   #27
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Rythal, thanks for all of your hard work on Carbonite. It's a tough thing to pick up on someone else's coding aind try to make sense out of it. I'm happy with the way that you've kept it operational and easy to use. Sure, there will be bugs and we all expect that, don't let the "idea" people get you down, you're doing great.
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Unread 11-09-12, 02:16 AM   #28
patrick51
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Originally Posted by Rythal View Post
I do understand his anger, and i'm sure he's not the only one... I did ask people what feature they wanted added more.

But that was before I really had a chance to look through things, and as it stands doing quests first would mean doing the work twice, once now to get it working with the current carbonite, and then again a second time when I get to the quests overhaul.
What development tools do you have Rythal? There are many LUA compilers that are actually free and if you need it I think I still have a few licenses left for my corporate copy of dream weaver There is a WOW API for it as long as you promise not to give the license code out the code would be yours to keep i think i still have 4 licences left . I will check when i get back to my home next week have a class i have to teach on Tuesday so it will be Monday evening there before I am home and yes my students also think i am a dick. One of the nice things about being semi retired at 40 I can travel when i want as long as I am back for my 2 days a week I teach.

Have been looking over the code. You do realize that it is fully self contained code IE it does not really rely on blizzards code to work? Most if not all of the map add-ons for wow are Basically just map overlays that changes the graphical information or frames and do not really change the way the blizzard UI functions. Carbonate was designed to totally replace the WOW maps and questing info it is not a overlay but a self contained full replacement for the map UI that is also why when you have add-ons like gather mate, gatherer etc they do not show on the carbonate map only the mini map.


The reason why maps work the way they do is because of the fact it is fully self contained code and does not really rely on wow to function. It is going to be difficult if not impossible to get the same functionality using standard libraries

You can get some of the LUA compilers and by coping a few of the wow folder and making a few of your own files to replace missing files. You can run carbonite on a simulator to trace the functionality.
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Unread 11-09-12, 10:54 AM   #29
Hardbunny
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Oh look, all he wanted was to offer help... You know there are better ways to go about doing that, right?

Ways that don't insult the developer. Like asking if he wants help.
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Unread 11-09-12, 01:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by patrick51 View Post
Have been looking over the code. You do realize that it is fully self contained code IE it does not really rely on blizzards code to work? Most if not all of the map add-ons for wow are Basically just map overlays that changes the graphical information or frames and do not really change the way the blizzard UI functions. Carbonate was designed to totally replace the WOW maps and questing info it is not a overlay but a self contained full replacement for the map UI that is also why when you have add-ons like gather mate, gatherer etc they do not show on the carbonate map only the mini map.
Assuming I've followed this all correctly (I've been lurking sporadically since Rythal first tackled this project, bless his heart) . . .

The old Carbonite quest tracking code was self-contained because there was no built-in quest tracking at the time it was developed. Consequently, whenever quests were added, changed, or removed, quest tracking was broken until somebody went in and fixed it. This happened when the Cataclysm patch completely torched the Azeroth quest set, and again when MoP hit.

Since Blizzard now provides the client with some quest information, this is no longer really necessary. The developer could continue maintaining the quest database by hand, but there's another option now.

The other major change that many users, and Rythal, have stated as a desired priority, is cutting many of the peripheral aspects of the addon out of the core functionality. Making the code modular to reduce its footprint basically means a total overhaul. Rythal has also stated a desire to make the end product more accessible so that the community isn't starting from scratch if he goes the way of the original developers down the road and others are left to maintain the addon.

So, in the meantime, we are looking at band-aids to the original add-on until 2.0 comes along. With limited resources and no real compensation, I think that's more than reasonable. I haven't had major problems with any of the last few updates, but yes, the map is a little buggy (it sounds as if there were changes on Blizzard's side that screwed up caves, at least).

Rythal has, to his credit, been fairly modest about his own talents. He's doing what he can to make this work for us, he didn't promise unicorns or rainbows, and especially not immediately. Gotta keep that in mind.
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Unread 11-09-12, 02:47 PM   #31
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This comment is targeted to quest information in general, and not to Carbonite specifically as I do not know much, if anything, about Carbonite and its quest information.

Blizzard provides some information about quest POI information through its quest tracker. Of course this is limted to quests that are currently in the quest log. However, it does not provide any information to the user about where a turn-in is located until the quest is ready to turn in, nor relationships between any quests. For the vast majority of quests, Blizzard will provide no indication that a quest giver is present and ready to give a quest until one is close enough to see the tell-tale markers on the minimap.

Even with the POI information Blizzard provides, there is no sense of order. One could easily decide to do things in alphabetical order and go back and forth over the same terrain multiple times. However, with proper ordering, quests can be finished using the most efficient routes.

Therefore, if any of the above information (and other pieces of information Blizzard does not provide, or at least conveniently provide) is desired, a quest database needs to exist.
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Unread 11-10-12, 07:57 AM   #32
larrylab
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complaints not complements

I want you to know that you are appreciated doing something none came forward to do, please don't be disheartened by the people who have chosen to criticize you. Thank you very much. If I was capable of helping I would offer, but alas I drive a truck for a living and no less than nothing about how to help.
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Unread 11-11-12, 07:34 AM   #33
patrick51
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Originally Posted by catastrophile View Post
Assuming I've followed this all correctly (I've been lurking sporadically since Rythal first tackled this project, bless his heart) . . .

The old Carbonite quest tracking code was self-contained because there was no built-in quest tracking at the time it was developed. Consequently, whenever quests were added, changed, or removed, quest tracking was broken until somebody went in and fixed it. This happened when the Cataclysm patch completely torched the Azeroth quest set, and again when MoP hit.

Since Blizzard now provides the client with some quest information, this is no longer really necessary. The developer could continue maintaining the quest database by hand, but there's another option now.

The other major change that many users, and Rythal, have stated as a desired priority, is cutting many of the peripheral aspects of the addon out of the core functionality. Making the code modular to reduce its footprint basically means a total overhaul. Rythal has also stated a desire to make the end product more accessible so that the community isn't starting from scratch if he goes the way of the original developers down the road and others are left to maintain the addon.

So, in the meantime, we are looking at band-aids to the original add-on until 2.0 comes along. With limited resources and no real compensation, I think that's more than reasonable. I haven't had major problems with any of the last few updates, but yes, the map is a little buggy (it sounds as if there were changes on Blizzard's side that screwed up caves, at least).

Rythal has, to his credit, been fairly modest about his own talents. He's doing what he can to make this work for us, he didn't promise unicorns or rainbows, and especially not immediately. Gotta keep that in mind.
To do what carbonite does it has to be self contained , Blizzard gives very limited info about The POI's. I For Google maps to work properly It has to have it own code Basically many of the add-ons are just overlays or changes to the frames. The reason why it can have Google maps and no one else's does is it is real code not just some overlay It does not modify the frame it totally replaces it with its own code and graphics

If you want accuracy in its quest tracking. or anything beyond just quest tracking
It will need to store the data in a data base if not you get quest helper light. The difference between the normal version and the version with a data base id night and day The same reason why Quest helper, Grail/wholly all use there own data base. For acuaracy and for features

Thank you nihm for the better exsplanation
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Unread 11-11-12, 07:35 AM   #34
patrick51
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Originally Posted by Nimhfree View Post
This comment is targeted to quest information in general, and not to Carbonite specifically as I do not know much, if anything, about Carbonite and its quest information.

Blizzard provides some information about quest POI information through its quest tracker. Of course this is limted to quests that are currently in the quest log. However, it does not provide any information to the user about where a turn-in is located until the quest is ready to turn in, nor relationships between any quests. For the vast majority of quests, Blizzard will provide no indication that a quest giver is present and ready to give a quest until one is close enough to see the tell-tale markers on the minimap.

Even with the POI information Blizzard provides, there is no sense of order. One could easily decide to do things in alphabetical order and go back and forth over the same terrain multiple times. However, with proper ordering, quests can be finished using the most efficient routes.

Therefore, if any of the above information (and other pieces of information Blizzard does not provide, or at least conveniently provide) is desired, a quest database needs to exist.
Thanks for the better exsplanation
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Unread 11-12-12, 02:58 PM   #35
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Wow just wow....
if you think you can do better design your own addon.
Leave Rythal alone he's working hard enough already.
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Unread 11-12-12, 07:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by patrick51 View Post
To do what carbonite does it has to be self contained , Blizzard gives very limited info about The POI's. I For Google maps to work properly It has to have it own code Basically many of the add-ons are just overlays or changes to the frames. The reason why it can have Google maps and no one else's does is it is real code not just some overlay It does not modify the frame it totally replaces it with its own code and graphics

If you want accuracy in its quest tracking. or anything beyond just quest tracking
It will need to store the data in a data base if not you get quest helper light. The difference between the normal version and the version with a data base id night and day The same reason why Quest helper, Grail/wholly all use there own data base. For acuaracy and for features

Thank you nihm for the better explanation
I think that what Rythal is proposing is not what you may have interpreted... From what I've read, the primary goal is to trim down the self-contained code into a more modular set of easy-to-read segments ... of self-contained code. Put the map generation definitions together, identifying a zone or subzone with one unique identifier, for example (so that future programmers don't have to remember that 6012 *here* is 315 *there* and is tracked under 1087 in the *third* spot). Make the quest database modular and slightly easier to read and understand when looking at the data file, so that memory isn't automatically topped off with all the quests in Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms while out questing in Outlands... With an end result of a leaner-running addon that delivers the same functionality as the existing one client-side, while being easier for future developers to pick up and maintain.

I dunno, maybe I missed something. That's the sense I get from Rythal's remarks.

The sense I get from you is that you're concerned that the modifications being planned will result in a degradation of the client-side experience, and I don't think that's what's intended.
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Unread 11-12-12, 10:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Rythal View Post
I do understand his anger, and i'm sure he's not the only one... I did ask people what feature they wanted added more.

But that was before I really had a chance to look through things, and as it stands doing quests first would mean doing the work twice, once now to get it working with the current carbonite, and then again a second time when I get to the quests overhaul.
Rythal,

The OP has no right to be angry about anything. Leave alone the 'coding for free' aspect of addons or the godawful mess that the Carbonite code is, the fact remains that while you may solicit public opinion in good faith, you have a responsibility to do things in the order that is the best development practice. This whiner may be waiting for the quests but many of us are waiting for the Modular Carbonite -- the Ruma successor. (For myself, I'm using a patchwork of replacement addons and eschewing the big C until you're done.)

Annoyed, sure, but this guy? Needs professional help.

Hey, Patrick-whatever-your-stupid-number-is: if you want it done to you schedule -- and since you wrote your own UI it should be a breeze for you -- take a leaf out of Rythal's book an bloody do it yourself, else, enjoy the free programming support he provides. His thread about the switch in lineup was more than sufficient to outline the problem. Alternatively, you could pay him to do it your way to your schedule, but you'd best have deep pockets since, as I'm in the business, I can tel you that we do not come cheap, not by a long shot.

Checkbook or respectful silence.
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Unread 11-13-12, 09:14 AM   #38
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You say Rythal waited two months before asking us what we wanted? Well try reading your history before a little better. Rythal worked on Carbonite a lot as best he could. In the begining it was just for himeself, but then for others. He kept us updated on progress and asked for ideas daily. For a long time he was restricted with what he could do because of the copyright laws. He only had full rights to the addon about a month or so ago. Untill then he could not really work on most of Carbonite, (what he did was risky).
Now it is improving, maybe not yet to your high all mighty standards (what could be). But we all owe Rythal a debt of gratitude for what he has done. If you can do something that is better, please go ahead and do it. I would love to try it. Just remember to allways check your facts first before you say anything.
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Unread 11-13-12, 05:24 PM   #39
schizophrena
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Originally Posted by S@thi View Post
Wow just wow....
if you think you can do better design your own addon.
Leave Rythal alone he's working hard enough already.
I have said the same thing many time over when people complained about Fataal and Havok - and I completely agree here. If you think you can do better, go for it! At least now you have no excuse - you are starting at the same point Rythal is with open code to build off of.
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Unread 11-13-12, 05:52 PM   #40
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Exclamation Let us not get Rash

I can see both points of view here. So please people lets not jump on anyone.
1. patrick51 apologized as I see it several times, he is a coder. For those who have not worked with these guys they are anal.. at times and as he put it Perfectionist. I used to do programing years back and if you don't have the tolerance for it well you loose it. And sometimes on people. Even when you dont' mean to.
2. He has offered to work on the data quest base. So Please let Him and Rythal get together and see what can be done.
3. I think someone should change the name of this thread... Please.
I like many appreciate all the hard work Rythal has put into this I would be totally lost without it. !!!!!

an old saying " Too many hands in the pot spoils the stew"... it is just a saying
we all have parents .. ask them what it is like to have too many cooks in the kitchen...
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