Quantcast WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 11 - WoWInterface
Thread Tools Display Modes
03-21-09, 11:52 PM   #201
Shirik
Blasphemer!
Premium Member
WoWInterface Super Mod
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 818
Why the heck do you have that Cairenn?
__________________
たしかにひとつのじだいがおわるのお
ぼくはこのめでみたよ
だけどつぎがじぶんおばんだってことわ
しりたくなかったんだ
It's my turn next.

Shakespeare liked regexes too!
/(bb|[^b]{2})/
  Reply With Quote
03-21-09, 11:54 PM   #202
spiel2001
nUI's Author
 
spiel2001's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,724
Must... acquire... knowledge...

~roflmao~
__________________

What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
My brush has two colors, 1 and 0, and my canvas is made of silicon.



Official nUI Web Site: http://www.nUIaddon.com
Official nUI Support Forum: http://forums.nUIaddon.com
My day job: http://www.presidio.com/

Last edited by Cairenn : 04-06-09 at 12:28 PM.
  Reply With Quote
03-21-09, 11:57 PM   #203
endx7
An Aku'mai Servant
 
endx7's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
Look at this from another angle. Apple can dictate what apps are allowed on the iPhone because those apps have to use a system they have control over. They've said "hey, you can charge for your apps, that's fine, but you can't make VoIP apps or browsers." And it's totally within their rights to block those apps. Same with Blizzard, if they choose to block addons based on conditions they define, they can. And one of those conditions is that the addons must be free.
Apple comes at this from two angles:
- The SDK agreement
- Jailbreaking being "illegal"

What we have here is pretty close to an SDK agreement, except we don't have an SDK. Currently, I can't see how these guidelines, by themselves, could be binding in any manner.

However, with or without that, the EULA does claim they can allow some "third party user interfaces" for WoW, at Blizzard's discretion. These guidelines merely indicate informally which ones they don't allow. Legally, I doubt the guidelines would help us any, and legally, I doubt Blizzard needs the guidelines at all.

Edit: I'm assuming they didn't update the EULA, because I didn't notice an update to EULA with the PTR.

Last edited by endx7 : 03-22-09 at 12:10 AM.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 12:06 AM   #204
Cairenn
Credendo Vides
 
Cairenn's Avatar
Premium Member
WoWInterface Admin
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,109
Originally Posted by Shirik View Post
Why the heck do you have that Cairenn?
I haz lots of different smilies.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 12:07 AM   #205
spiel2001
nUI's Author
 
spiel2001's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,724
Strictly in the interest of adding some meat to the thread...

These comments were posted by Shefki on the WoW UI forum and I think they probably put the whole thing, from an addon author's perspective, in the clearest perspective I've seen yet (just my opinion)...

I guess you could say that I'm on strrike. If only in so much as I am no longer working on addons as long as the property issue remains up in the air. This is not about money. It is about the right to own that which I have created. If you don't believe that authors own their own works you can stop right here.

I have never asked for or received any money for any addon that I have worked on. I have never planned to do this. I am not a greedy person as the people in this thread imply that authors that disagree with this policy are. In fact there are a very small minority that even ask for donations and an even smaller number that charge outright.

If Blizzard can enforce the free addon requirement with legal action then it seems to me that they believe that addons are derivative works. Some of the people on the forums here believe that they do. I do not, have not and never will believe this.

If I do not own the rights to my addons then I am unable to set the license terms under which they are distributed. Be that free. Be that GPL. Be that BSD. In fact if this is the case all licenses are invalid. It places all addons in a very difficult legal position.

I work on TBag-Shefki which was forked by Talos from EngBags, which itself has had numerous authors. If the previous authors did not own their work, then my work on this addon is quite possibly not legal becuase they did not have the right to grant me this ability.

I work on PitBull and other ckknight addons from time to time which have donate buttons in them. These are not buttons which are sending money to me. The money goes to ckknight, and rightfully so. However, I cannot remove them. As a result, I can not comply with the policy and continue to work on these addons now that this policy has been posted.

At the same point I support other authors that wish to sell their addons or place donation requests, buttons, chat notifications, etc... in the game. I do not feel that any of these things are harmful to the addon community as a whole, even though I would personally never do them. I simply feel that the OWNERS of those addons have the right to do these things.

This policy has not and will not do any of the following things:

a) Increase the number of free addons. If anything the situation will stay the same, with only the paid addons disappearing as their authors abandon them and some authors doing free addons abandon them.

b) Decrease donation buttons as many authors have already decided to flat out ignore this policy in this regard.

c) Remove advertising from WoW as Blizzard has signed contracts for advertising on their website, battle.net (the "new" login system) and in their games.

The community is largely self policing, the backlash at Carbonite over their advert supported version would likely have run the course and it would have gone away. Those that cared would eventually have moved onto the free alternatives that have no adverts. Those that didn't like those alternatives would have done without (and the game is entirely playable without Carbonite et al) or would have bought Carbonite. Allowed to run it's own course I believe the advert supported Carbonite would have disappeared on its own. As such I feel this action was entirely premature on the part of Blizzard.

I hope that Blizzard reconsiders or at least explains their positions with respect to these issues so that the addon community can get back to producing addons instead of sitting on the forums with a bunch of people who in general do not understand the issues and just want free addons.

I however, can not comply with the policy as I understand it and must refrain from making these free addons that you feel you are entitled to at this time.

Maintainer of TBag-Shefki ~ http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...ag-shefki.aspx
PitBull Contributor ~ http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a.../pit-bull.aspx
__________________

What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
My brush has two colors, 1 and 0, and my canvas is made of silicon.



Official nUI Web Site: http://www.nUIaddon.com
Official nUI Support Forum: http://forums.nUIaddon.com
My day job: http://www.presidio.com/

Last edited by spiel2001 : 03-22-09 at 12:11 AM.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 12:10 AM   #206
spiel2001
nUI's Author
 
spiel2001's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,724
Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
I haz lots of different smilies.
Am I going to have to bite you to get the dead horse smilie?

o.O

__________________

What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
My brush has two colors, 1 and 0, and my canvas is made of silicon.



Official nUI Web Site: http://www.nUIaddon.com
Official nUI Support Forum: http://forums.nUIaddon.com
My day job: http://www.presidio.com/
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 12:28 AM   #207
Nastarria
A Fallenroot Satyr
 
Nastarria's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
I've been Trolling the talks of the Addon Dev Policy, I agree with Blizzards Choose to do this, But that's Not why I'm here.

Many addon Authors who have commented on the No more Donation Requests in Game thing.
Maybe WoWinterface could make it so that when you click "Download" on the Addon's page, it takes you to a Spash type page with a timer.
On it, it asks people to take the time to Donate to the Author (If the Author wants donations) with details on how to do so.

It's not the Best Idea, I know this, but it could work.
No matter what you do, if people use programs to download addons (Such as WowMatrix), you've already lost them, Donation Wise.

Well, that's My 5c worth on the subject.

If someone already made this suggestion before, My bad... I only read the first 3 or so pages of this Novel of a Topic. (Novel as in a Book, not Novel as in "Novel Idea")
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 01:06 AM   #208
Bangerz
A Fallenroot Satyr
 
Bangerz's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
awww, but, but, I have such a good smilie for that!
Stolen for future use!
__________________

Last edited by Cairenn : 04-06-09 at 12:28 PM.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 01:30 AM   #209
Sythalin
Curse staff
 
Sythalin's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 680
The most amusing thing about all this is that everyone is all uptight now, but in a month everyone will have stopped caring, put the new policies in the backs of their minds and move on.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 01:58 AM   #210
Torhal
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Torhal's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,196
Are you an evil philosopher, or just making a random comment?
__________________
Whenever someone says "pls" because it's shorter than "please", I say "no" because it's shorter than "yes".

Author of NPCScan and many other AddOns.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 03:57 AM   #211
Zyonin
Coffee powered Kaldorei
 
Zyonin's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,440
Originally Posted by ChaosInc View Post
The most amusing thing about all this is that everyone is all uptight now, but in a month everyone will have stopped caring, put the new policies in the backs of their minds and move on.
That is so true.

As I said before, we all need to put down our pitchforks and wait for some Blue responses (either via the WoW forums or communication with WoWI/Curse/WoWUI.Incgamers). Seriously, everyone is getting all worked up over something that was released on Friday. We likely won't hear anything until, at the earliest, Monday when Blizzard's Nazgul return to their tower.
__________________
LiveJournal | Twitter

  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 04:26 AM   #212
ObbleYeah
A Cobalt Mageweaver
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 210
Originally Posted by spiel2001 View Post
Anarchist!

~grin~
Sometimes i think anarchy is better than all this corperate bull****, not the anarchy where there's neo-nazi's hitting cars with baseball bats (if you have a smiley for that Cairenn i'd be impressed) but anarchy as in mutualism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)

I think i'm becoming a radical, someone pin me down
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 04:53 AM   #213
Yhor
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Yhor's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,077
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory) is the "fixed" link.

I agree with some aspects of mutualism, but imo, it's too communistic, and in no way represents anarchy by definition. It would make for an interesting penal colony government, though.


Edit: Something keeps breaking the underscore in the link. Sorry for correcting something that couldn't be corrected...

Last edited by Yhor : 03-22-09 at 04:55 AM.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 05:40 AM   #214
Slakah
A Molten Giant
 
Slakah's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 863
In response to spiels quote (as I don't have access to a US account):

I very much doubt that Blizzard can/would prevent you from charging for your work and thus you still "own" the code. All they could do (I think) is block any addons they find which break their policy. Basically what it comes down to is people are a bit disgruntled as Blizzard is not running a free market policy on addons, which imo is fine and people are annoyed that Blizzard could implement a different ideal to their own in it's game (which is pretty much what iPhones have been doing for an age).

As I've already mentioned the only rule that I could possibly have an issue with is #5, and should be changed to something which only allows asking for donations in the options of the addon.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and my comments should be treated as such

The community is largely self policing, the backlash at Carbonite over their advert supported version would likely have run the course and it would have gone away. Those that cared would eventually have moved onto the free alternatives that have no adverts. Those that didn't like those alternatives would have done without (and the game is entirely playable without Carbonite et al) or would have bought Carbonite. Allowed to run it's own course I believe the advert supported Carbonite would have disappeared on its own. As such I feel this action was entirely premature on the part of Blizzard.
I very much doubt Carbonite would have dissapeared as your argument relies on users caring, which is just silly .

Last edited by Slakah : 03-22-09 at 06:11 AM.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 06:04 AM   #215
Yhor
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Yhor's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,077
I was wrong about Blizzard possibly introducing in game ads via Microsoft's "Massive" ad software. It will be limited to Battle.net games, the forums, and will not be in game. The link to my source.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...lizzardPR.mspx


My apologies for stirring the pot.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 06:30 AM   #216
Kimmik
Support Addon Writers
 
Kimmik's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
I was wrong about Blizzard possibly introducing in game ads via Microsoft's "Massive" ad software. It will be limited to Battle.net games, the forums, and will not be in game. The link to my source.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...lizzardPR.mspx


My apologies for stirring the pot.
That is still bad enough.

But my two cents in all this bruhaha... is that if you all want donations or even paid premium versions... blizzard should blow off... y'all are what make the game more fun. I know I don't have the head to try to do a line of what y'all do so my hat's off to you guys and I am rooting for ya. *huggles*
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 07:45 AM   #217
Xruptor
A Flamescale Wyrmkin
 
Xruptor's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 115
Someone brought up the Blizzard and or WOW EULA when it comes to creating addons. Although I've never read it in it's entirely. I'm sure somewhere in there is something about creating addons for WOW and what Blizzard feels about it. Since I'm such a lazy ass I'll just post what someone else posted.

It is interesting as I would have to read the EULA for further info on Blizzard position with their policies. Has anyone actually read the entire thing in regards to addons?

For the love of all that is holy! Don't flame me for this! I just wanted to relay this information as I found it interesting and related to the topic at hand. It's not by any means my words.

I'm just interested on what other people think about their EULA in regards to addons and their new policies.


------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted from carboniteaddon.com forums. Original poster "AgentZed".

The Carbonite devs never deserved to get paid. They volunteered themselves, and volunteers, by definition, don't get paid. They get something unique to put on their resume, or they get class credits, but they don't get money. Such is the nature of volunteering. Now before everyone goes flying off the handle, I paid for Carbonite, and if it switches to a donation-based system, I will continue to pay for it. Not because of all the "time and hard work" they put into it, because I honestly don't care. Whether writing addons is hard, or it takes a lot of your time doesn't bother me in the least. What did catch my eye when I was deciding whether Carbonite was worth forking over cash for was two simple little words, "Updated regularly". Now, not having to go a week without a favourite addon after a patch, or not having a big ugly error box pop up in the middle of my screen during the middle of a raid, THAT is worth paying for in my books. And if Carbonite remains regularly updated, I'll donate reguarly. Hell, I have no problem throwing $15 at them per update, if only to encourage them to keep at it.



Now, I feel for the Carbonite crew, they had a good thing going, and with a stroke of a pen Blizzard turned it all to ashes. And that sucks. Always does, always will. But if you get deep enough into the nitty gritty of the EULA, and wrap your head around some truly baffling legalspeak, Blizzard effectively owns any addon that anyone makes for WoW. And most places in the world frown rather sternly on people who sell things that don't belong to them. This was bound to happen.
Then followed by this post

I humbly suggest you give the WoW EULA a good read over, especially the section titled "Ownership". In it, Blizzard states that they own all IP related to World of Warcraft "including without limitation... computer code..." They're basically saying, "Sure, you can go ahead and do what you want with the tools we give you within the guidelines we lay out, as long as you're agree that everything you make belongs to us". This is what allows them to take successful addons and incorporate them into the game itself without having to worry about lawsuits from the mod makers. From a legal perspective, mods are made for Blizzard, and the makers have no legal claim to them. Whether or not this is the way things should be is really the other discussion. I work in graphics design, and crap like this is all too common. I've had more than a few contracts where the client claims all of the IP rights for themselves and states that payment will be given upon receipt of the final product, then as soon as I submit a mockup they drop the contract and hand the mockup to an art student doing their practicum and get the whole thing for free. And it effing sucks, but that's the way the business works. Your only recourse is to refuse to sign those contracts and put the word out about them, and make friends with lots of Business & Law students.



I forced myself to read the entire EULA (I recommed a good 20 year old scotch to get you through the whole thing), and found three warning signs that the Carbonite team was in for trouble. One I've already mentioned, another is tucked away at the end of a paragraph where you agree that "You have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game." If you played fast & loose with the definitions of "feature" and "content" you might get around this one, but I doubt it. And lastly there's the standard boilerplate: "NEITHER BLIZZARD NOR ITS PARENT, SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND ARISING OUT OF THE GAME OR ANY USE OF THE GAME, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION LOSS OF DATA, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER DAMAGES OR LOSSES." (Sorry for caps, copy/pasted). This pretty much ensures that the Carbonite team have no legal recourse against Blizzard destroying their business.



It sucks, I hate it, I wish it wasn't like this, but it's the way the world works, so all we can do is pour a stiff drink, soliloquise the unfairness of life, and hope everything works out in the end.
__________________
Click HERE for the ultimate idiot test.

if (sizeof(sadness) > sizeof(happiness)) { initDepression(); }

Last edited by Xruptor : 03-22-09 at 07:47 AM.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 08:02 AM   #218
Tristanian
Andúril
Premium Member
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 279
From a legal perspective, mods are made for Blizzard, and the makers have no legal claim to them.
Eh, how to say this, but no. Just, no. Addons containing lua code are the intellectual property of their authors, whether they are referencing the WoW API or not, as long as they are not copying or including anything from Blizzard's code. You cannot copyright or license an API (despite the fact that the code behind that API is copyrighted), essentially a list of 'names'. As such, an addon cannot be considered a derivative work that is in violation of copyright and I would really like to see anyone including Blizzard, arguing otherwise.

The point is very simple. Blizzard sets a policy. You do not have to, agree with it, it's not legally binding. BUT, in that policy they clearly state that if you choose NOT to comply with it, it is well within their rights to decide to disallow/block your addon(s), while being used inside World of Warcraft. It is really that simple.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 08:04 AM   #219
Sichae
A Defias Bandit
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2
1) Add-ons must be free of charge. Ties to 3#, potentially. Premium versions offer a smaller package for those that paid, leaving anyone not willing/able to pay having to install more addons, which may/may not affect performance. It is Blizzard's house and you are designing furniture. Your furniture makes the house look/feel better, yet Blizzard isn't receiving any money (outside of the 15$ that we all pay to play the game [I don't believe that Blizzard charges people to be able to make addons, though I may be wrong]) from your possible furniture sales, and they are all using up resources that Blizzard is supplying.

4) Add-ons may not include advertisements. Because they are annoying and, from what I've seen, affect gameplay. I used Carbonite (Ads) for all of 2 hours before ads over my castbar, target frame, minimap, chat frame, began to drive me nuts (especially since there were no ads, only ads for Carbonite for people to supply ads, thus giving more money to Carbonite, not Blizzard, while using up Blizzard's resources to display the ads).

5) Add-ons may not solicit donations. Kinda BS, kinda needs to be clarified. I've seen donation comments in blurbs after login. I've seen them in the settings. They are not obtrusive, I don't mind them.

6) Add-ons must not contain offensive or objectionable material. Covering their own butts.

8) Blizzard Entertainment has the right to disable add-on functionality as it sees fit. Once again, it is their house. If they don't want to have a couch, they don't need to let a couch into the house.

Kinda didn't want to post out of not wanting to be flamed for my first post on these forums, I think. But, I don't visit these often enough to really warrant a need for validation. I was an addon developer for a small game for 4 years, which took up a lot of my free time and I got no compensation outside of the thanks and praises of downloaders and fellow coders.

Tuck your donation buttons away, bite the bullet. Because, no matter what you do, whether it be to stop developing or to continue, Blizzard is going to push through with these changes, people are still going to pay to play the game, and other addon developers may possibly create similar addons to pick up where you left off.

Less QQ, moar pew pew (send an email to Blizzard pleading your case).

/equipslot 17 Flame Shield

Last edited by Sichae : 03-22-09 at 08:07 AM.
  Reply With Quote
03-22-09, 08:29 AM   #220
shdwphnx
A Deviate Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by Sichae View Post
1) Add-ons must be free of charge. Ties to 3#, potentially. Premium versions offer a smaller package for those that paid, leaving anyone not willing/able to pay having to install more addons, which may/may not affect performance. It is Blizzard's house and you are designing furniture. Your furniture makes the house look/feel better, yet Blizzard isn't receiving any money (outside of the 15$ that we all pay to play the game [I don't believe that Blizzard charges people to be able to make addons, though I may be wrong]) from your possible furniture sales, and they are all using up resources that Blizzard is supplying.
This is not really a good comparison. The resources used by most add-ons actually come from your computer, not from Blizzard. A better analogy would be to say that it's Blizzard's streets you drive your car on, and that they are trying to dictate what you can have inside your car. Certain restrictions make sense such as no overly loud horns (no add-ons that spam other players). They have no business telling me AM radios are fine, but I cannot have FM.


Originally Posted by Sichae View Post
8) Blizzard Entertainment has the right to disable add-on functionality as it sees fit. Once again, it is their house. If they don't want to have a couch, they don't need to let a couch into the house.
True, Blizzard definitely has the right to disable add-on functionality. Again, it is not really their house though. Going back to my street analogy, Blizzard has the right to widen or narrow the roads, add stop lights, etcetera. However, that is not what they are doing with this policy. I personally feel this is more like them telling me that blue cars are forbidden, and only green ones are allowed.

Shdwphnx

Last edited by shdwphnx : 03-22-09 at 08:34 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity.
  Reply With Quote

WoWInterface » General Discussion » Chit-Chat » WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off