WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread

[Samasnier]

Originally Posted by Kimmik Is it just me.... or are there really a lot of folks out there that seem to be going hahaha you have to give me stuff free now... haha???

I haven't seen anyone actually say it on the forums, but I've no doubt there are people saying it to themselves.

On the other hand, I know for a fact there are authors that are taking down their addons and even going so far as to erase their posts on the forums. To me, it seems they're saying, "Hahaha, you can't force me to give my addons for free, so I'm not going to give them away at all, and I'm going to erase all my helpful posts! Haha!"

Obviously they want us to get upset and complain to Blizzard. I don't know about anyone else, but it doesn't make me mad at Blizzard. It makes me mad at those throwing the temper tantrums.

[Tristanian]

"temper tantrums" is your own interpretation of a stance that said authors are taking in regards to the new guidelines. It is very much within their rights to take down their addons at any time, without prior warning (unless they want to be 'nice' to their users) and even without the obligation to explain why. People should really stop acting as they are entitled to anything, when it comes to 3rd party addons (I'm strictly talking about NON commercial addons). In all honesty its the worst thing you can do and tends to piss off authors that are already considered as machines that simply spawn/fix/maintain code. Donations fundamentally are (and should be) optional. No one is forcing you to donate cash at gunpoint and if someone does so indirectly, then I would personally stay away from said person and his addons. Alternatives are all over the place. Sure, they may not be as cool or fancy or even good than what some are used to, but the world is certainly not going to end.

[kasca]

I only see one problem. They dont seem to mind the cheats that go on.

[Samasnier]

"A tantrum is an emotional outburst of ill humor or a fit of bad temper wherein the higher brain functions are unable to stop the emotional expression of the lower (emotional and physical) brain functions. It can be categorized by an irrational fit of crying, screaming, defiance, and a resistance to every attempt at pacification in which even physical control may be lost."

Raging on the forums, taking down addons, erasing posts...all in reaction to some guidelines on which we haven't yet received clarification? Sounds like a temper tantrum to me.

I don't see how anything in my previous post could be construed as me having a sense of entitlement.

[Tristanian]

I was not referring to you personally as having a sense of entitlement, nor do I advocate the fact that some authors can be quite rude in their reactions. I'm merely stating that their reaction is understandable from a certain point of view (again I'm not talking about commercial addons which I'm against on principle, yet I recognize the fact that their existence is valid). What I was basically trying to say is, that I've seen a lot of people ultimately putting blame on author X, not because of his reactions or stance (not really) or ideas but because of the fact that they won't be able to use his addon in the future.

[spiel2001]

Speaking as a mod author... so far I have seen no attempt at pacification.

Excluding a select few, mostly all I see is people saying Hoorah, mod authors have to give us our mods for free, followed quickly by... The mod authors who choose not to give us their stuff for free anymore are greedy children having tantrums.

/shrug

I'm still developing anyway.

[Samasnier]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 Speaking as a mod author... so far I have seen no attempt at pacification.

The guidelines were posted Friday. It's only Monday, 4am Pacific (aka Blizzard time).

I have no problem with authors discontinuing support of their addons. I have a slight problem with them actually taking their addons down. I have a much larger problem with people erasing their posts.

I applaud the authors who disagree with Blizzard's new guidelines but have remained calm.

[FrankN]

Originally Posted by Samasnier I have a slight problem with them actually taking their addons down. I have a much larger problem with people erasing their posts.

The addons do not comply to Blizzard guidelines, the authors did not want to comply --> They have to remove their addons.

And deleting the posts is their good right to do so, no matter if you like or not. Like Blizzard can change the ToS.

[tsadok]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 /shrug I'm still developing anyway.

It's hard to stop those algorithms and optimizations coursing through one's head, but if Blizz's stance on this turns out to be particularly stupid, I might have more time to do other stuff

[Spahut]

Originally Posted by Tekkub Signing. It's not somewhere they want to go, but the code has been in place for a long time, and is used by *one* addon out there. If they have to, they will though.

Which one?

[Kimmik]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 Speaking as a mod author... so far I have seen no attempt at pacification. Excluding a select few, mostly all I see is people saying Hoorah, mod authors have to give us our mods for free, followed quickly by... The mod authors who choose not to give us their stuff for free anymore are greedy children having tantrums. /shrug I'm still developing anyway.

And we wub you for it too

[Maul]

Originally Posted by Spahut Which one?

http://www.wowinterface.com/download...6-MovePad.html

[seebs]

To the best of my knowledge, a derivative work is covered by both copyrights -- in general, the creator of the derivative work can't distribute it (or even create it in the first place!) without permission from the people from whose work it was derived, and the people from whose work it was derived can't distribute it without permission from the person who derived it.

Firefox/iceweasel isn't a similar case, simply because firefox started out under an open source license, which makes things rather different. A more interesting case would be, say, a translation of a book into another language. By default, you don't have the right to translate someone else's book into another language. If you get permission to translate it, the translated book is now covered by both your copyright (on the translation) and the original author's copyright (on the source), and you have to agree on usage for it to be allowed.

I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc.

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by seebs To the best of my knowledge, a derivative work is covered by both copyrights -- in general, the creator of the derivative work can't distribute it (or even create it in the first place!) without permission from the people from whose work it was derived, and the people from whose work it was derived can't distribute it without permission from the person who derived it. Firefox/iceweasel isn't a similar case, simply because firefox started out under an open source license, which makes things rather different. A more interesting case would be, say, a translation of a book into another language. By default, you don't have the right to translate someone else's book into another language. If you get permission to translate it, the translated book is now covered by both your copyright (on the translation) and the original author's copyright (on the source), and you have to agree on usage for it to be allowed. I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc.

http://copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

[Jiminizer]

Originally Posted by seebs Interesting. Well, let's think this through. Imagine an unobfuscated version. What's someone going to do? Submit bogus data? Unless two people collaborate to create that bogus data, you'll have a mismatch when two different people report back inconsistent data for a given fight, no?

Thats the problem. As it stands we only require the team captain to upload data, but even if we required allteam members to upload the captain could still fake another player or have other members alter their files.

Originally Posted by Shadowed If somebody wants to upload fake stats, they can still upload fake stats. Since there is an author with the same name and has an obfuscated project on Curse, I'm going to assume you're one of the authors of epeen. It's really not that hard to remove the obfuscation, I had Preform AV Enabler (when it was obfuscated) in plain text in about 2-3 hours out of boredom, and that was before I realized I could use a simple Lua script to restore the line breaks. Since you can't hide the if/then/else/function syntax nor can you really hide the WoW function names it's not that hard to figure out the intent and what does what once everything has line breaks in it, and even indention if someone is bored enough. In the specific case of this mod: Converting characters from the number values such as "\76\111\115\115\101\115" to "Losses" could be done with a script without much hassle, and figuring out the SavedVariable format could be done with relative ease after that, especially if you had SavedVariable examples of a game you lost and a game you won. Could probably figure out how to upload fake data in maybe an hour or two if at that, if I really wanted (Which I don't). The point is, obfuscation does nothing but add a little bit of extra time, and can make it more fun to do since it adds an extra challenge.

I realise obfuscation isn't a fool proof method of preventing tampering, its meant more to discourage people from poking around and quickly changing things. The majority of our users wouldnt understand lua but would be able to change a few numbers.

[Spahut]

Originally Posted by Cladhaire The Addon Development Policy as written is not a legally binding document. Until such a time where you agree to the policy in some way you are not in agreement with Blizzard. Please continue reading before jumping or making conclusions.

Love how everbody are suddenly lawyers *g*

Well, you have already agreed to that they can change any of their rules at anytime.

Originally Posted by Cladhaire If Blizzard were to add the policy to the Terms of Use or EULA then every user and developer who opens the client would have the opportunity to agree or disagree with the policy.

3.1 anyone?

[Spahut]

Originally Posted by Maul http://www.wowinterface.com/download...6-MovePad.html

Haha, that's great. Thanks

[Spahut]

Originally Posted by Republic That's incorrect. Blizzard sees Addon work as derivatives of the game itself.

You don't know how they see it - since they haven't said that.

Originally Posted by Republic That's the ONLY way any AddOn has a chance to stand on its own copyrightable grounds. It must show itself as a product that does not incorporate any previously published work(s) (like making use of the game, etc.).

Glider was felled on copyright grounds, so that is not correct. Seems to me what they are saying is that its of your license permissions to make addons, if you follow the license demands.

[Maul]

I think the issue of obfuscated code for Blizzard is more of a trouble shooting one. When an addon causes a problem in-game, the majority of addons can be examined and easily be identified as an addon issue or a game issue. Before Blizzard adds an addon to the baddon file, they want to make sure they are not adding it if it turns out that the issue is really on their end (which has happened many times in the past)

Obfuscated code really drains out the man hours in trying to trouble shoot UI issues affecting the game. With the obfuscated code clause, Blizzard gives themselves an out by essentially saying "the issue may be our code or the addon's, but since the addon's code is obfuscated, it is going to get a ban until it is un-obfuscated and we can correctly determine the root of the issue"

I think this policy is the result of two colliding issues: The current world economy state and the man hours Blizzard dedicates to Customer Service issues related to addons. Blizzard, like many companies, are trying to ensure their survival by taking a hard look at where they are bleeding cash. Up until this policy was issued, Blizzard had a money pit in the addon aspect of the game that they had no control over.

This is a moderate step to ensure that the cash bleeding is controlled to some extent in regards to addons. The other option is just to shut down the addon system all-together.

While I personally think the policy is over-reaching in some areas, Xinhaun brought an excellent point on WoWAce that I don't think too many are understanding: If Blizzard adds the addon standards to either the EULA or ToU, telling each user they many not use an addon that violates policy, and an addon author continues to develop an addon in defiance of said policy, any legal arguments about the policy itself is not what the addon author needs to worry about, but rather being sued for "tortious interference with contract." In other words, providing a addon that interferes with the contract between the account holder and Blizzard.

And this "tortious interference with contract" aspect already has established itself to be on Blizzard's side via the Glider case. All copyright issues aside, Blizzard has an ace in the hole with "tortious interference with contract".

[Spahut]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 When Blizzard tells you how you can distribute the add-on, how much your can charge for it (if anything) and the terms under which you deliver and support the add-on, that is pretty much a claim of ownership.

Not so, they are essentially saying "If you do THIS - you are not allowed to use this with our program" - that's different.