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05-14-09, 01:08 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
i looked at it, but it seemed to be saying it was a command-line tool and the command-lines didn't look exactly user-friendly. at least to this user.

maybe you guys need a module in minion to handle submitting mod revisions.
As Dolby mentioned, it's pretty much meant to be something you run quickly from the command line. For example, I've got a bunch of bat files that I just click and can upload a mod to both Curse/WoWI from my Git repo without any issues. It's not that hard to write your own scripts to do mod uploading thought, it's pretty much just grab from SVN, grab logs, zip, submit.

Not sure what Shirik's plans are, but if he doesn't and I have time over the summer (and, can be motivated to write Java) I'll probably end up writing something to push versions to Curse/WoWI from Minion since the current script is held together with duck tape and magic.
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05-14-09, 01:12 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
"Why would we not have a choice? Because other sites were going to be implementing theirs today, whether we did or not. If we didn't go ahead with ours today as well, we wouldn't be running at all today. They (WowMatrix) would have jumped from splitting their scraping of both sites to scraping only one site, our site, since they couldn't access the other one. We'd be down today, completely and totally, no one would be able to get to our site at all. How does that help anyone?"
that sounds a bit aggressive on curse's part. we're going to block wowmatrix -- here's how we're going to do it, if you're not onboard, expect to be blitzed by wowmatrix.
I'm sorry but I still interpret the passage with the bolded part important. If an addon is avaliable on both Curse and Wowinterface and Curse was unavailable where do you think someone would get that addon from?

I still believe that if Wowinterface did not put up the same block as Curse at the same time as Curse they would've been flooded with extra download requests and scrapping from wow matrix for addons.

Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
however, another way to look at it as "they got the message".
They got some kind of message but it's not the kind of message that I prefer that they see.

I would of prefered that they come to the realisation that they need to work with the addon sites instead of against the addon sites. This is from an addon author side of things , not a adddon user side of things.

If they really want to be hosting addons then they should be doing it for real - offer addon author submission tools , support forums and most importantly permission to host said addons. Instead of telling the users to pressure the addon authors to do so.

Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
how is it "artificial"? curse gets more traffic / ad impressions even if the author is trying to force people to use curse. that's their ultimate goal as a company, no?

<snip>

do you think curse thinks of that as being "unfair" or do you think they think of it as bringing them more visitors -- and thus ad revenue?
Yeah but can't you see if they did actually support authors forcing people to use Curse then they could possibly be accused of paying addon authors to force them to come to Curse ?
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05-14-09, 03:39 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by honem View Post
I'm sorry but I still interpret the passage with the bolded part important. If an addon is avaliable on both Curse and Wowinterface and Curse was unavailable where do you think someone would get that addon from?

I still believe that if Wowinterface did not put up the same block as Curse at the same time as Curse they would've been flooded with extra download requests and scrapping from wow matrix for addons.
sure, but the timing was curse's. picking patch day to drop the bomb makes it very difficult for wowi to say no for the reasons you pointed out.

They got some kind of message but it's not the kind of message that I prefer that they see.

I would of prefered that they come to the realisation that they need to work with the addon sites instead of against the addon sites. This is from an addon author side of things , not a adddon user side of things.
i agree, but i also remember when wowmatrix first sprouted up. they introduced themselves over at wowace and got piled on pretty quickly. there wasn't constructive criticism offered, there were simply demands to quit hosting addons by individual authors.

If they really want to be hosting addons then they should be doing it for real - offer addon author submission tools , support forums and most importantly permission to host said addons. Instead of telling the users to pressure the addon authors to do so.
maybe they could do the same thing for authors that they did for users -- provide a single tool that *uploads* to all the various sites and checks the different pages for bug reports.

but i don't really want another hosting site with its own ticket system, comments section, and support forum. i suspect most authors feel the same way.

Yeah but can't you see if they did actually support authors forcing people to use Curse then they could possibly be accused of paying addon authors to force them to come to Curse ?
not a chance. if i choose to upload only to curse, i'm not breaking the addon policy. so how would encouraging people to do something that doesn't break the policy be itself breaking the policy? since curse and wowi both have premium services and wowmatrix doesn't, would encouraging people to not host at wowmatrix be an infringement of the policy?

edit: btw, poking around the net i learned that zam sued (or is suing) curse for copyright infringement, demanding $1mil. not sure if it was a friendly lawsuit or not. i couldn't read up on any details but i'm guessing it's related to the remarkable similarities between wowdb and wowhead.

Last edited by lilsparky : 05-14-09 at 03:59 PM.
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05-14-09, 04:06 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
i agree, but i also remember when wowmatrix first sprouted up. they introduced themselves over at wowace and got piled on pretty quickly. there wasn't constructive criticism offered, there were simply demands to quit hosting addons by individual authors.
Had they simply asked FIRST, they would likely have had a much different reception. Don't take people's stuff, then ask if it's okay, because it's too damned late to be okay.
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05-14-09, 04:53 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
sure, but the timing was curse's. picking patch day to drop the bomb makes it very difficult for wowi to say no for the reasons you pointed out.
The two sites had probably talked about blocking WM before patch day, discussing ways to effectively block them. It's also likely that Curse didn't tell WoWI on (or the day before) patch day that they'd start their blocking, they probably gave WoWI a few days notice. Maybe even weeks, who knows.


edit: btw, poking around the net i learned that zam sued (or is suing) curse for copyright infringement, demanding $1mil. not sure if it was a friendly lawsuit or not. i couldn't read up on any details but i'm guessing it's related to the remarkable similarities between wowdb and wowhead.
WoWI is Zam, but Zam is not WoWI... Unless I missed something somewhere along the years.
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05-14-09, 04:54 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
Had they simply asked FIRST, they would likely have had a much different reception. Don't take people's stuff, then ask if it's okay, because it's too damned late to be okay.
I completely agree, reminds me of the inconsiderate ***holes at my old job. We had a fridge in the break room, and I might leave a drink in there or maybe a sandwich or something, people would eat my or anyone's food for that matter. The next day I'd get this line, "Hey man, I'm sorry but, I was really hungry so I ate your sandwich, hope its not a big deal."

Yes it's a big deal!! Now I don't have lunch today!
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05-14-09, 04:57 PM   #207
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[Edit] And for the record, in case anyone had any doubt - I, personally, and MMOUI, as a whole, completely disagree with that way of doing business. Just pointing out that it seems to be the way a lot of people do business.

Last edited by Cairenn : 05-14-09 at 05:13 PM.
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05-14-09, 05:11 PM   #208
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Sounds like shooting first and asking questions later.
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05-14-09, 05:36 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
Had they simply asked FIRST, they would likely have had a much different reception. Don't take people's stuff, then ask if it's okay, because it's too damned late to be okay.
at the time, there were plenty of updaters that simply downloaded straight away from wowace's files list. wowmatrix got its start by simply downloading them all and then listing them for download. if they were trying to be sneaky about it, they failed completely cuz they came by wowace to introduce themselves.

the relationship was instantly hostile. wowmatrix was the enemy, not a misguided community member. my sense -- and i could be wrong -- was that instead of trying to say, "yo, if you want to get into the addon game, this is what you need to do..." it was "f-off, creeps".

Originally Posted by Psychophan7 View Post
The two sites had probably talked about blocking WM before patch day, discussing ways to effectively block them. It's also likely that Curse didn't tell WoWI on (or the day before) patch day that they'd start their blocking, they probably gave WoWI a few days notice. Maybe even weeks, who knows.
oh sure, i'm not saying they just sprang it on wowi. i'm saying they selected a patch day to commence the blocking. why would they do that? did they feel like letting wowmatrix continue to leech bandwidth until the next patch? seems kind of unlikely. did they think inconveniencing the most users in the shortest period of time would be good PR? again, that seems unlikely. i'm left thinking that the date was decided upon to help convince wowi to go along with it. cairenn says herself that there was little real choice since the patch day traffic would have been crippling.

WoWI is Zam, but Zam is not WoWI... Unless I missed something somewhere along the years.
huh? not sure i follow.
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05-14-09, 05:55 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
at the time, there were plenty of updaters that simply downloaded straight away from wowace's files list. wowmatrix got its start by simply downloading them all and then listing them for download. if they were trying to be sneaky about it, they failed completely cuz they came by wowace to introduce themselves.
other updaters... irrelevant, other updaters are not the topic of discussion, atm.
As for how they started, yeah, they took addons without asking FIRST, then say 'hi everyone, I rep wowmatrix and thought I'd drop in to say thanks for the addons I'm redistributing". Asking first might have brought a much better result... but since they didn't ask, they were treated as anyone else would have been treated, under the same circumstances. Oh well.

the relationship was instantly hostile. wowmatrix was the enemy, not a misguided community member. my sense -- and i could be wrong -- was that instead of trying to say, "yo, if you want to get into the addon game, this is what you need to do..." it was "f-off, creeps".
if it looks like a creep, and acts like a creep.... what exactly would you call it? A geat addition? No, I don't see how you could, unless the creep was you or your family, or both (and I'm not saying anything about -your- family, or you... just a general analogy). As said before, ask first, otherwise it's theft... plain and simple. Argue all the hell you want, that is what it boils down to.

Last edited by Yhor : 05-14-09 at 05:58 PM. Reason: clarity
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05-14-09, 06:24 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
i'm saying they selected a patch day to commence the blocking. why would they do that? did they feel like letting wowmatrix continue to leech bandwidth until the next patch? seems kind of unlikely. did they think inconveniencing the most users in the shortest period of time would be good PR? again, that seems unlikely. i'm left thinking that the date was decided upon to help convince wowi to go along with it. cairenn says herself that there was little real choice since the patch day traffic would have been crippling.
Seerah said they had come out with it before Patch day there was a very real fear the WM would of been able to get around the block somehow. I'm sure I've also seen posts by Our-Illustrous-Forum-Lady-Whose-Name-I-Cant-Spell-Properly and Dolby-He-Who-Makes-Sure-The-Servers-Stay-Up to support this view. I choose to believe them.

Yes I know it sucks from a user side of things. But IMHO it is the lesser of two evils - upset some people and have the site stay up or have the site go down and have no one able to access it.
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05-14-09, 06:32 PM   #212
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I want to clear something up.


We've been trying to block WM for a long time. So has Curse. They continued to circumvent our efforts. We both knew the only way for it to work and for WM to get the point was for both of us to work together and do it at the same time. We were working on this for a good 2 weeks or so before it went into place, with Dolby and Shirik sharing ideas back and forth with Kaelten and his guys at Curse.

I don't know who came up with the idea of right before the patch. But, while it wasn't the best time for our users (our updater wasn't ready yet), as honem keeps trying to point out, it was NECESSARY to do it then for both sites. Both Curse and WoWI wanted their sites accessible for their users on patch day. If WM weren't blocked, the sites would have been crushed under the click-happy WM users and WM scraping the sites. If Curse had done it alone, WoWI would have been crushed still (moreso). If WoWI had done it alone, Curse would not see a performance boost either.

The minute WM was blocked from Curse, their traffic went down 30%. The minute WoWI blocked them, it went down to 50% for us. While it is true that Curse was going to do it with or without us (for their own sanity on patch day), we needed to, too.
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Last edited by Seerah : 05-14-09 at 08:46 PM. Reason: grammar :p
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05-14-09, 08:30 PM   #213
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Just for clarification between the "other updaters" and wowMatrix is that other updaters scanned your installed addons and had you configure where they came from or automatically figured that out. None of the independant updaters I knew/know of had a prebuilt list of addons for you to select from and install.

Cosmos' Installer as well as WAU are excluded as these programs where hosted by the site, a very different story than WUU / jWAU ect.

This was one of the single biggest differences that really set the community on edge with it, compounded by the site parsing. ect.
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05-14-09, 09:23 PM   #214
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I find it hilarious that you guys still keep fighting over this in this way.


It's simple. You have 3 companies in the same market, but doing their business in different ways. This market is very dependant on goodwill from users.
Suddenly these companies clashes. What do they do? Try to show that the other one is immoral, and to raise themselves to the sky's ofcourse

Is WoWMatrix FAQ (the fact that it may be questions they want to answer, and not questions they were mailed doesn't matter, this is a pretty common way of naming it) twisting the truth? OFCOURSE THEY ARE!
WoWInterface and Curse do the same thing. It's about making and maintaining goodwill. Marketing.

I won't give examples of where WoWMatrix is bending the truth, you all know that already, but lets look at curse and wowinsider.

At first they claimed that WoWMatrix hadn't in any way responded when trying to make deals. They were the evil pirates, ignoring everything, no parlay, harrr!
Then WoWMatrix disputed this. They had had talks, and they had offered to pay.
Curse/WoWinterface (cant remember who said what exacly) then change their story. Sure, there had been talks, but the deal offered by WoWMatrix was bad.


Now, I don't dispute that the deal might have been bad, I don't know how much they offered. I'm talking about marketing here.

We have 3 companies, all bending the truth to fit their needs. It's nothing strange.

People, you need to learn to never take a pressrelease as full truth. All companies have an interest in making goodwill, companies online even more so. Don't swallow anyone's story whole, look at the big picture and use the gray thing inside your skull to see what makes sense.
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05-14-09, 10:45 PM   #215
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Wait... I'm sorry, what? Could you show me where we have "bent the truth" for good marketing? Where have we shown anything less than the truth? In addition, it was never any secret that Curse had spoken with WowMatrix on one occasion. This has been public knowledge since... last October iirc. They never responded to us, WoWInterface.

Now, I don't dispute that people should use their brains when looking at things - especially on the internet. (Hell - I often have to remind my students that they have a brain and they need to use it. Usually stated like this, "You have a brain in your head right? Then USE it!") But don't say that we have been anything but truthful without proof. Put that gray matter to use. Many of your facts have been incorrect.
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05-14-09, 10:48 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by nosscire View Post
Is WoWMatrix FAQ (the fact that it may be questions they want to answer, and not questions they were mailed doesn't matter, this is a pretty common way of naming it) twisting the truth? OFCOURSE THEY ARE!

WoWInterface and Curse do the same thing. It's about making and maintaining goodwill. Marketing.
Thing is. Wow interface and Curse have as far as I know never twisted the truth. When I've asked them a question they've always been up to front with it.

Originally Posted by nosscire View Post
Then WoWMatrix disputed this. They had had talks, and they had offered to pay.

Curse/WoWinterface (cant remember who said what exacly) then change their story. Sure, there had been talks, but the deal offered by WoWMatrix was bad.
It's Wow matrix that are lying. They did have talks with Curse. Unsucessfull talks. And as Dolby, Seerah and Cairenn will tell you multiple times. They've never talked to Wow interface.

Originally Posted by nosscire View Post
People, you need to learn to never take a pressrelease as full truth. All companies have an interest in making goodwill, companies online even more so. Don't swallow anyone's story whole, look at the big picture and use the gray thing inside your skull to see what makes sense.
You have two sides here telling two different versions of the truth.

How do you know which is the truth and which is lies?

Me personally I would believe the side that's been here since Day 1. Who provide free hosting, excellent support, tools to make uploading downloading & managing addons easier for both addon authors and addon users and a thriving community of helpful friendly people. A side that without whom there would not be as vibrant an addon community that there is today. A side that's gone as far as organise beta keys for addon authors so they can get their addons updated way before a PTR even opens.

Can you guess which side that is ?

Hint : It's not wow matrix.
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Last edited by Bluspacecow : 05-14-09 at 10:49 PM. Reason: wooops its wow interface they never talked to
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05-14-09, 11:04 PM   #217
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The fact that WoWI and Curse have both maintained a constant dialog with their users about this issue should tell you something about their honesty. Hmmm... Let's see... What has Wowmatrix done? Oh, yeah! They issued a "faq"! But not one that anyone could question in any kind of open debate! Oh, no! We can't have that! Many WM supporters have called the defenders of WoWI and Curse "blind followers". Well, I gotta tell ya... I feel a lot more insightful and informed by these multiple forums than by WM's one lousy "faq"! It kills me when people question the honesty of someone when that someone is offering them the opportunity, the privilege and the very means itself to present any arguments whatsoever!

I guess I'd better go take a chill-pill before I say something to earn a vacation.
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05-14-09, 11:14 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by nosscire View Post
At first they claimed that WoWMatrix hadn't in any way responded when trying to make deals. They were the evil pirates, ignoring everything, no parlay, harrr!
Then WoWMatrix disputed this. They had had talks, and they had offered to pay.
Curse/WoWinterface (cant remember who said what exacly) then change their story. Sure, there had been talks, but the deal offered by WoWMatrix was bad.
You're dead wrong, here. It was stated weeks before WoWMatrix released their "FAQ" that Curse had been in talks with them. All that was said before and after, regarding WoWInterface, is that there was no communication between them and WoWMatrix. The only entity which disputes this is WoWMatrix. The story has not changed on WoWInterface's side. I suggest that you learn to read in entirety instead of bits and pieces here and there before posting skewed time-lines based on fragmented information.
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05-15-09, 02:34 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by nosscire View Post
At first they claimed that WoWMatrix hadn't in any way responded when trying to make deals. They were the evil pirates, ignoring everything, no parlay, harrr!
Then WoWMatrix disputed this. They had had talks, and they had offered to pay.
Curse/WoWinterface (cant remember who said what exacly) then change their story. Sure, there had been talks, but the deal offered by WoWMatrix was bad.
No. Just no.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...1&pageNo=23#33



* 445. Re: Wowmatrix: What's it really doing? 01/29/2009 05:04:51 PM PST




This was posted by Kaelten on January and its only a fraction of proof that no 'story' has ever changed. It was known to the WoWAce regulars long before that. Note that this is several months before WoWMatrix even had a "FAQ" focusing entirely on the Curse/WoWI 'incident'.
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05-19-09, 08:36 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
other updaters... irrelevant, other updaters are not the topic of discussion, atm.
As for how they started, yeah, they took addons without asking FIRST, then say 'hi everyone, I rep wowmatrix and thought I'd drop in to say thanks for the addons I'm redistributing". Asking first might have brought a much better result... but since they didn't ask, they were treated as anyone else would have been treated, under the same circumstances. Oh well.

if it looks like a creep, and acts like a creep.... what exactly would you call it? A geat addition? No, I don't see how you could, unless the creep was you or your family, or both (and I'm not saying anything about -your- family, or you... just a general analogy). As said before, ask first, otherwise it's theft... plain and simple. Argue all the hell you want, that is what it boils down to.
Disclaimer: The following is an opinion based message regarding my personal views.

They didn't get a clue back then and they apparently don't have a clue now. They still appear to be acting like creeps. The first reaction to Wowmatrix seems to be a valid one.

Having a good sense of ethics when developing a business is a must in modern times. If you treat others poorly and without respect, you will be treated poorly, do poorly and lack respect in return. This does, by no means, mean that everyone starts out with good ethics or ends with good ethics. Businesses are run by people who can make mistakes. The smart people and businesses learn from them. Continuing to follow poor ethics and bad practice can only lead to disaster.

Think of it as being environmentally responsible. The Internet can be a complex environment. Cheating your way through it is akin to leaving your trash everywhere you go, except that it all has your name on it.

Sadly, Wowmatrix could have done what WoWI is doing now with their new updater, made it into something that's beneficial to all who use it, not just Wowmatrix. Instead, they decided to take what wasn't given to them. You can't take respect (although you can try to fake it with fear tactics and plain ol' hogwash), you have to earn it.

Modifying game files (settings) without the user's knowledge or permission is totally wrong, if not criminal (akin to trojan-like behavior).

Then again, this is probably why Blizzard™ says to disable all add-ons to fix problems. This means they don't have to figure out who did what. Although changing game settings still could, in theory, cause problems beyond the add-ons themselves by interfering with the normal or expected operation of the game.

I wonder what Blizzard™ thinks of Wowmatrix and their business ethics...

Note: True respect is given freely as a tribute to greatness in whatever manner one perceives it, not by force, fear or lies. False respect can brutally turn against those who seek it in the first place. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, as the saying goes. No one likes being made a fool. Second chances can be tough (depending on the reason for it) and are usually scrutinized very closely.

Last edited by Gruffness : 05-19-09 at 08:58 AM. Reason: Bad cut and paste editing, bad!
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