WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by DonCorneo Instead of telling WM to take down their need-to-click-to-get-paid ads, did anyone ask WM to put ads up for WI? Possibly giving them the needed program for impression ads? Would that have been acceptable for WI?

That would be assuming the wowmatrix team even answers the wow interface team.

So far they haven't answered any of the myraid amount of emails and messages the wowinterface admins have sent them.

Seems to me they don't want to work with the community.

[Cairenn]

Hey Don. Thanks for the kind words. It's been a long couple weeks, after a couple long weeks just before it.

If you check through the thread, you'll notice us say time and again that we tried to talk to WM and they never had the courtesy to even respond to us. Hard to work anything out when they won't even speak to us in the first place. =/

[DonCorneo]

Originally Posted by Slakah I would hope that the adviews would cover the bandwidth cost for each person using the program and the updater program *should* use less bandwidth as the user will not need to download each webpage, even though people will undoubtedly update their mods more often, and if push comes to shove I suppose they could implement a system similar to Curses "Premium Service". Also I can't be the only one scared of the fallout when they disable their "all in one button" :P. But anyway I'm sure the WoWI guys have already thought all this stuff through

Curse has an estimated 3.8 million annual sales (as reported by D&B). Their Premium Membership is not to pay for operating costs, it is to boost their profit margin. Even with WM "leeching" off Curse, they are operating in so far in the black that they rent an expensive office suit. Curse pushed to block WM in order to be able to put users in the position of updating each AddOn one at a time with the free client or to pay for the "privilege" of being "allowed" to update all-at-once or automatically.
Curse pushed WI into blocking WM. Curse was perfectly willing to let WI "drown" like they did to WUI.
I think it's a real shame that WI was forced into the position they are in. If it wasn't for Curse's greed and willingness to drain money from the gaming community even though the economy is really bad, WI would have waited until their Client was ready for release.
What is amazing to me is that the Authors don't realize that Curse is making an estimated 3.8 million a year in sales (according to D&B) thanks to the Authors. If all the Authors were to pull their AddOns, Curse would go bankrupt. Curse is dangling the carrot of donating to Authors via Premium Membership fees to get the Authors and users to pay for a "worthy cause" when it is just a way for Curse to boost its sales. I am making sure all the AddOns I use can be updated here or from WUI so that I'm not contributing to their greed.
Bryan McLemore, Kaelten, has also unilaterally decided that one Author's copyrighted material can be taken by another Author without permission of the first (kinda like the WM modifications, wouldn't you say, except WM didn't list itself as the Author) by refusing to remove the "offending" AddOn. WI has decided that it is not allowed and Cairenn removed the AddOn.

Cairenn also took the time to respond to me and presented WI's side of this whole fiasco, thus making me understand what went down. Because of this I do not feel that WI was being malicious when it blocked WM. Based on the information presented by Cairenn, and others from WI, I believe them when they say they had to do it to protect the site.

I hope someone does step-up to help get the new client launched. I would but I do not know programming and that would actually delay the project. I am willing to beta test if needed. I am good at doing the unexpected and down-right stupid thus finding problems/bugs.

[Scalebane]

Originally Posted by DonCorneo Curse has an estimated 3.8 million annual sales (as reported by D&B). Their Premium Membership is not to pay for operating costs, it is to boost their profit margin. Even with WM "leeching" off Curse, they are operating in so far in the black that they rent an expensive office suit. Curse pushed to block WM in order to be able to put users in the position of updating each AddOn one at a time with the free client or to pay for the "privilege" of being "allowed" to update all-at-once or automatically. Curse pushed WI into blocking WM. Curse was perfectly willing to let WI "drown" like they did to WUI. I think it's a real shame that WI was forced into the position they are in. If it wasn't for Curse's greed and willingness to drain money from the gaming community even though the economy is really bad, WI would have waited until their Client was ready for release. What is amazing to me is that the Authors don't realize that Curse is making an estimated 3.8 million a year in sales (according to D&B) thanks to the Authors. If all the Authors were to pull their AddOns, Curse would go bankrupt. Curse is dangling the carrot of donating to Authors via Premium Membership fees to get the Authors and users to pay for a "worthy cause" when it is just a way for Curse to boost its sales. I am making sure all the AddOns I use can be updated here or from WUI so that I'm not contributing to their greed. Bryan McLemore, Kaelten, has also unilaterally decided that one Author's copyrighted material can be taken by another Author without permission of the first (kinda like the WM modifications, wouldn't you say, except WM didn't list itself as the Author) by refusing to remove the "offending" AddOn. WI has decided that it is not allowed and Cairenn removed the AddOn. Cairenn also took the time to respond to me and presented WI's side of this whole fiasco, thus making me understand what went down. Because of this I do not feel that WI was being malicious when it blocked WM. Based on the information presented by Cairenn, and others from WI, I believe them when they say they had to do it to protect the site. I hope someone does step-up to help get the new client launched. I would but I do not know programming and that would actually delay the project. I am willing to beta test if needed. I am good at doing the unexpected and down-right stupid thus finding problems/bugs.

Hmm seems like the same guy that was trying to smear kealten on the WoW UI forums, funny.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by DonCorneo Bryan McLemore, Kaelten, has also unilaterally decided that one Author's copyrighted material can be taken by another Author without permission of the first

We know who you are! I don't know why, but this makes me want to do the Vir Cotto "head on a pike" wave.

[DonCorneo]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Hey Don. Thanks for the kind words. It's been a long couple weeks, after a couple long weeks just before it. If you check through the thread, you'll notice us say time and again that we tried to talk to WM and they never had the courtesy to even respond to us. Hard to work anything out when they won't even speak to us in the first place. =/

Originally Posted by honem That would be assuming the wowmatrix team even answers the wow interface team. So far they haven't answered any of the myraid amount of emails and messages the wowinterface admins have sent them. Seems to me they don't want to work with the community.

And that is bad for WM. Though I was not present to know what was what, I can easily believe that Curse did not help matters. As a whole (and I feel sorry for the exceptions) they come across as "do it my way and do it right now" type, like spoiled little children.

If you need someone to help alpha/beta test the new client, as I have posted, I'm more then happy to help. I would offer to help with the programming, but with what I currently know about it, that probably would delay the project another hundred years or so. It doesn't look to hard to grasp, but I'm too lazy to learn it right now.

PS Cairenn, send my apologies to those you can remember and tell them you were able to shed some light on the subject.

[DonCorneo]

Originally Posted by Scalebane Hmm seems like the same guy that was trying to smear kealten on the WoW UI forums, funny.

Not smear, just point out some real facts.

Check into the MazzleUI issue.

[Cairenn]

Don, while I appreciate the support, I do have to remind you of the site rules. No slander, no flaming, post with courtesy and respect, remain civil. Please don't make me have to give you a vacation from the site. Concerns you have with Curse should be brought up on their site. Thanks.

[DonCorneo]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Don, while I appreciate the support, I do have to remind you of the site rules. No slander, no flaming, post with courtesy and respect, remain civil. Please don't make me have to give you a vacation from the site. Concerns you have with Curse should be brought up on their site. Thanks.

Out of respect for you, I'll not respond to certain subjects anymore.
It's just I hate seeing people getting pulled in hook, line and sinker when the "defender" is no better than the "offender". And I kinda of fell into it myself by not looking at all sides first. I made the "guilt by association" mistake.

[Ackis]

Don, are your eyes brown? Because you sure are full of ****.

Sorry, I'm a glass-half-full kinda guy. I don't sit and ponder about author's credit and all that - I was a semi-pro musician for 10 years, and had 2 CD's produced...I understand copyright and credit. But I SOLD my music, I didn't give it away. When I make something to give away, I give it away with no strings attached...I'm GIVING it, not selling it or presuming anything. but again, it all comes back to money doesn't it? If we could totally rip money from the picture, then I'm quite sure people would love WM.

I don't think the WM people were thinking to themselves "how can we rip off the addon authors, Curse and WoWi??? I know, let's make an application that 'steals' their bandwidth and takes their customer base! That'll show them!"

I think they, like me, thought this as a glass-half-full opportunity to make a service for WoW players that was BETTER than the run of the mill slow curse ads site and the WoWi site (which, at the time of WM's conception was not that great of an addon source).

Look, when we go to the mall to shop, do we stop outside of every store front and say to ourselves "now let's not offend the other stores by bringing our shopping bags into this store...let's be sure we aren't giving more credit to Sears than we should - let's be fair. Oh, and let's not stand in front of Taco Bell, even though we plan on eating at Panda Express, because that's stealing floor space." NO, we don't. When we buy something, we tend to go for the best deal, or we go to the place that's the most accessible. Some of us even argue and fight with the salesman just to get a better deal. We're WowMatrix sharks when WE gain from it, but as soon as we lose, then the sharks are all bad people with bad ideas - they all's theaving and bandwidth stealing.

I think, in all "fairness", no one is being fair. Blizzard makes us pay $15 a month, while they drive off in Porsches. WM is "stealing bandwidth" and giving it away to sharks like me who hate websites with ads, banners and way too many links. I build websites, and people pay me for it, and on these sites I may very well put ads and too many links...its a big circle, and we're all part of it.

I think if we stop filtering everything through the lens of money and credit, and look at WM again, we'd all realize how much of a HUGE benefit WM is for endusers. THEN, those folks who DO make a profit from hosting these ads, THEY could come up with a way to both improve upon what WM has while keeping and gaining a solid userbase which makes them da bucks. Curse simply has not come out with a comparable addon manager, and neither has WoWi (or wowace or anyone). Why? I don't know! All I DO know is that I have since uninstalled the addons that WM can't get to and chosen alternative addons that work similarly that WM CAN get to. I'm guessing others have done the same. What has Curse and WoWi gained in this? I'll tell you - a WAY TOO LONG thread in their forums, posters like me who can't seem to stop typing, and a lot of other people upset with them. They and their fanbase try to hurt WM's reputation, but those of us who use it don't listen - we instead keep using it.

In the long run, this will hurt you more than me and WM...mark my words on that. Maybe a couple people will go back to curse and WoWi, but I expect that most of us will keep using WM anyway.

"Curse has an estimated 3.8 million annual sales (as reported by D&B). Their Premium Membership is not to pay for operating costs, it is to boost their profit margin. Even with WM "leeching" off Curse, they are operating in so far in the black that they rent an expensive office suit." +e

THIS - THIS pisses me off! This is corporate GREED at its finest. I am by no means a so******t (not an Obama fan either), but there's a difference between what I have coined "fair capital" and GREED driven by human nature. Thus another reason why I will NEVER EVER EVER use curse again...I will not support this sort of crap.

[Tuhljin]

Originally Posted by petrakid I think if we stop filtering everything through the lens of money and credit

It doesn't require a filter to look at reality with those things in mind. It takes a filter to take them out of the picture like you are so eager to do.

The creators of WM may not have sought out a way to rip other people off from its inception in their minds, but it is clear that they have no problem with doing exactly that, as you'd know if you read the thread. There are no valid excuses for what they have done. As for your complaints about Curse, since no reference was provided allowing me to verify the claims, all I have to judge it by is the poster of the comment you quoted, and that guy's not at all objective on this matter.

[Tekkub]

^

I can understand that they may have started wanting to make a kickass updater, and they pulled that off. The problem is how they worked with the community to do it, or more specifically, worked AGAINST the community from the moment people asked for their addons to be removed or for them to not use another site's bandwidth. They still, to this day, look for other sites as their primary source of addon updates without contacting the site owners or removing sources when requested.

It really seems like they found an amazing source of income and aren't willing to let go of it and embrace the community. That's only going to work against them in the end.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by petrakid Sorry, I'm a glass-half-full kinda guy. I don't sit and ponder about author's credit and all that - I was a semi-pro musician for 10 years, and had 2 CD's produced...I understand copyright and credit. But I SOLD my music, I didn't give it away. When I make something to give away, I give it away with no strings attached...I'm GIVING it, not selling it or presuming anything. but again, it all comes back to money doesn't it? If we could totally rip money from the picture, then I'm quite sure people would love WM. < snip > Look, when we go to the mall to shop, do we stop outside of every store front and say to ourselves "now let's not offend the other stores by bringing our shopping bags into this store...let's be sure we aren't giving more credit to Sears than we should - let's be fair. Oh, and let's not stand in front of Taco Bell, even though we plan on eating at Panda Express, because that's stealing floor space." NO, we don't. When we buy something, we tend to go for the best deal, or we go to the place that's the most accessible. Some of us even argue and fight with the salesman just to get a better deal. We're WowMatrix sharks when WE gain from it, but as soon as we lose, then the sharks are all bad people with bad ideas - they all's theaving and bandwidth stealing. < snip >

Alright, you say you are a semi-pro musician, so I'll respond in that vein. If you wrote a song and gave it away for people to listen to for free, through whatever method of distribution you chose, that's great. Now, what if someone came along, took your song, removed all credit to you as having been the artist, removed all references to where you are actually distributing it yourself, and gave it away to others while making money doing so. Would you be happy with them? That's what WowMatrix has been doing to the authors. Yes they have finally, after almost two years in business, added the authors' names back in and links to where they are legitimately distributed from, but you wouldn't believe the amount of screaming it has taken the authors to get them to do even that much. And they still ignore take down requests. As a musician, how would this make you feel? Did you give up all your rights to it, or did you just release it for free? There is, as you know, a very large difference. Did you say that someone else can take it, remove all reference that it was yours, and make money from it?

I can't use this comparision of music to addons completely, because there isn't a comparision (that I can come up with) of how music can be "broken" on the unauthorized distribution source but be not-broken on the authorized distibution sources, so you can't relate to the number of hours and headaches authors have gone through fixing the "bugs" in their "music" that were actually fixed ages before, etc.

As for the mall part, look at it this way. No one is saying you can't go into Sears carrying a WalMart bag. But you aren't a WalMart employee that is going into Sears, taking their goods without paying for them, then taking them back to WalMart to sell. WowMatrix was WalMart, taking the goods from Sears (WoWI, Curse, WowUI.incgamers, etc etc etc) without paying for them and then selling those goods in WalMart, AND using Sears' trucks to then deliver them, again without paying for any of the resources to run those trucks, but charging for the delivery, which you then pocket that delivery charge.

[Tekkub]

Walmart's a horrible analogy Cair. You suck.

Here's one that is almost EXACTLY what happened...

Some company sets up a satellite dish, gets some equipment, and starts recording shows from another broadcaster. They then overwrite the commercial slots with time they sold, and rebroadcast this new channel to anyone within range. As an added bonus, they cut off the credits at the end of shows.

[Verissi]

Music is not comparable to software (even free-to-use or fully unencumbered software) for many reasons, the least of which is the expectation of support in the case of software. Much like musical works, though, add-ons do not exist in a vacuum. They don't develop themselves nor do are they hosted by sites with unlimited bandwidth/resources such that they don't care who/what uses those resources (or to what extent).

You choose to give away your works as a composer/musician in an unencumbered fashion, but many software (and add-on) authors choose not to and those choices need to be respected, period. Personally, I do some work on truly free software as well as author my own add-ons, the latter of which I reserve all rights to for a specific reason. If WoWMatrix suddenly decided to offer my truly free software for distribution, I would have no problem with that, as I have already chosen to waive my rights for that code and have usually already reassigned even copyright to another entity like the FSF. I have not done so with my add-on code, however, so they should not violate my choice (and rights) as the author of those works regardless of the fact that those works are free-to-use (but still encumbered).

You can say that corporate greed is involved, but I disagree with that characterisation. Any business that isn't trying to make a profit and control their expences is likely not going to be a viable business for very long. To that end, even if Curse does reap a large profit (I haven't personally confirmed any of the reported numbers, so I won't speak of them as fact here), more power to them. They are doing as any business that wants to succeed should be doing in that respect. If either Curse or WoWInterface is a corporation with share holders, they actually could be held accountable by the share holders if they did otherwise. Turning a profit from a business venture isn't bad, despite what society espouses these days.

You're entitled to your opinion of the situation, and if you choose to use WoWMatrix exclusively, that's your choice. Saying that many authors and Curse/WoWInterface should just embrace them "for the good of the users", however, just won't work at this point. Many of the authors and sites involved have made repeated efforts to contact and work with them in the past only to be snubbed or completely ignored altogether. At this point, WoWMatrix needs to put some effort into showing that they actually care enough to "play by the rules", so to speak, before they can build any trust with the "suppliers" of the products that they want to distribute (add-ons).

[Cairenn]

Verissi, agreed, music is a terrible comparision in the case of after-creation "support", but I was trying to put it in ways that he would be able to relate to, at least somewhat.

People just can't seem to get it through their heads that code (addons) are just as legally protected as artwork or music or literary works, or ...... That's part of the reason why we (MMOUI) have spent the last seven years helping to protect authors' rights and trying to educate the general public.

/sigh

[Verissi]

Originally Posted by Cairenn People just can't seem to get it through their heads that code (addons) are just as legally protected as artwork or music or literary works, or ...... That's part of the reason why we (MMOUI) have spent the last seven years helping to protect authors' rights and trying to educate the general public. /sigh

I agree and have been part of the debate for many, many years myself I think the biggest problem is that many don't understand the difference between "free to use" and "totally unencumbered". Reminds me of trying to explain to my mother why she doesn't truly own (in all respects) the movies or software she buys on CD/DVD *gets a headache just thinking about it*

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by petrakid "Curse has an estimated 3.8 million annual sales (as reported by D&B). Their Premium Membership is not to pay for operating costs, it is to boost their profit margin. Even with WM "leeching" off Curse, they are operating in so far in the black that they rent an expensive office suit." +e THIS - THIS pisses me off! This is corporate GREED at its finest. I am by no means a so******t (not an Obama fan either), but there's a difference between what I have coined "fair capital" and GREED driven by human nature. Thus another reason why I will NEVER EVER EVER use curse again...I will not support this sort of crap.

You need to remember this is coming from a guy who has some sort of personal vendetta with Kaelten. To the point where he was ringing up his place of work during the day with it. If you're interested have a search through the wow matrix threads about it as I don't want to start stuff here that our over lady will have to police.

I haven't been able to find a source for his "$3.8 million annual sales" tho.

Thing is. Bandwidth, electricity, wages , operating costs and a myriad amount of other costs. All these things are not free. They do not grow on trees.

So having a figure of "$3.8 million annual sales" is completely meaningless without some idea of what the costs involved are.

Sales after all is not profit.

Profit = revenue/income - costs

Also what bussiness is it of ours how much money they make ? Why are people coming out and telling free volunteer sites all of a sudden they can't make too much of a profit or else they get called greedy ?

It's really silly. Do we really expect these sites to (a) run on sunshine and rainbows (b) never turn any of that money they earn back into the community?

Because I know they will. I believe they will take that profit and channel it directly back into the community. The author awards program is one example of this. Their premium membership is not "extra profit to go into their fat wallets". It's a new way for Curse to sustain themselves and give back to the community, a way other than Advertising.

So more power to them. If it keeps their doors open you know I will be the first to offer them a koha of a $20 note. They do so much for us for free. A little hand in the form of a donation every now and then isn't a big ask.

[HonorGoG]

Originally Posted by Tekkub ^ The problem is how they worked with the community to do it, or more specifically, worked AGAINST the community from the moment people asked for their addons to be removed or for them to not use another site's bandwidth. They still, to this day, look for other sites as their primary source of addon updates without contacting the site owners or removing sources when requested.

In fact, it's worse than that. They've started to encourage users to spam download site comment pages demanding that the author force said site to allow WoWMatrix to leech content. I have proof too.