Something I didn't quite get...

Arkive · 07-22-07, 08:27 PM

I'm not looking to start a flame war, I'm just looking for one or two mature opinions from the other side of the fence. What was the big stink about Mazzle selling his compilation? The mods in question are freely available, he's only selling the means by which to configure them and make them interoperable, as well as support them. If the download he was offering for sale was only his creative work and you had to download the mods seperately, would that be so much better?...because that's essentially what those who are upset are proposing. It's like folks want to make extra work for people who just want to enjoy the game (with the UI). If the mods were for sale by the authors, there might be some ground to stand on, but they just aren't. There's no profit margins being cut into. If Windows comes bundled with free software, do the authors of that software typically complain? Not usually...if anything it's free exposure. I guess i just don't get it.

Morfiene · 07-22-07, 09:44 PM

Mazzle asks for donations because of the time and effort put forth to make this UI package work. Imagine the costs to your own time if you wanted to design the same thing and have ppl complain about this or that and then you take the time to fix. As the old saying goes money=time and time=money. So yeah Mazzle does have a right to ask for at least some payment for the effort put forth to create a wonderful compilation such as this. And this is no flame just an explanation as I see it.

Mazzlefizz · 07-22-07, 10:18 PM

I hate Mazzlefizz! Discuss.

Dreadlorde · 07-22-07, 10:29 PM

I love mazzle. Gnomes are hawt. j/k.

joive · 07-22-07, 10:56 PM

Here we go again. The Evil Gnome with pink hair that wants to destroy Azeroth with his Polymorphic Mazzlegasmic Arcanic Skills.

Mazzlefizz, I'm with you and I know many others too. Those are the ones that count. Lets do it!

Mazzlefizz · 07-22-07, 11:34 PM

MazzleUI should be renamed SmurfUI so everything can get smurfed. Discuss!

joive · 07-22-07, 11:38 PM

What do Mazzlefiz, Darth Vader, Voldemort, Sauron and Dick Cheney have in common? Discuss!!

Rhothran · 07-23-07, 01:06 AM

Smurfgasm just doesn't have the ring to it...

Charybdis · 07-23-07, 04:01 AM

I dunno.. that smurfette.. mmm...

Maybe I'll get my wife to dress up in blue body paint tonight..

Rhothran · 07-23-07, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Charybdis

I dunno.. that smurfette.. mmm...

Maybe I'll get my wife to dress up in blue body paint tonight..

O_O

No.

Arkive · 07-23-07, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by Rhothran

O_O

No.

I'm trying to decide whether you're just jealous that his wife is cool like that, or whether you ARE his wife and are telling him hells to the no.

Rawked1 · 07-23-07, 06:57 AM

Sexymatron (hahahah 10 words, owned)

Auralei · 07-23-07, 07:32 AM

I'll comment on this.

The reason that people got mad because Mazzle decided he might sell his UI is because he doesn't OWN all of the code behind that UI. In fact, Mazzle is responsible for very little as far as his compilation is concerned, there is more work from other authors that he relies on.

Sorry, but that's just the truth. You can download his compilation and see for yourself that the work he's done is minimal at best when compared to the larger picture of who was behind his UI.

I'm sure it wouldn't be a shock for him to know that his addon is easily copied with eePanels using the very same art files, Discord Unit frames using his settings, ZMobDB for the 3D crap, Pitbull for a "Mazzle-ish" touch if you don't want to use DUF, and Geist for the context menu. I run one with those exact addons. In other words, he hasn't done anything revolutionary. And he can't stop the copies, and if he goes paid, it'll be a very short amount of time before we see a "Free MazzleUI" on another site somewhere. If he feels like doing something unethical with other people's code, people will give him that very same favor in return and there's not one thing he can do about it, he's lucky they haven't already in retaliation for his continued abuse and attitude toward the public.

This big picture on this issue is ethics and taste. And I have a feeling that "if" he decided he's going to sell something he didn't make on his own, the ethics and taste will speak for themselves. I can't name another author out there who sells compilations that contain other authors' work, there's a reason for that, they have tact. Do I find it tacky that Mazzle wants to no charge money to stay away from questions regarding his addon and some other hodge podge nonsense? You bet. But it doesn't surprise me, not in the least.

We'll see what the other authors do, when and "if" Mazzle decides to do something that blatantly, stupid and elitist.

Arkive · 07-23-07, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Auralei

I'll comment on this.

The reason that people got made because Mazzle decided he might sell his UI is because he doesn't OWN all of the code behind that UI. In fact, Mazzle is responsible for very little as far as his compilation is concerned, there is more work from other authors that he relies on.

Sorry, but that's just the truth. You can download his compilation and see for yourself that the work he's done is minimal at best when compared to the larger picture of who was behind his UI.

I'm sure it wouldn't be a shock for him to know that his addon is easily copied with eePanels using the very same art files, Discord Unit frames using his settings, ZMobDB for the 3D crap, Pitbull for a "Mazzle-ish" touch if you don't want to use DUF, and Geist for the context menu. I run one with those exact addons. In other words, he hasn't done anything revolutionary. And he can't stop the copies, and if he goes paid, it'll be a very short amount of time before we see a "Free MazzleUI" on another site somewhere. If he feels like doing something unethical with other people's code, people will give him that very same favor in return and there's not one thing he can do about it, he's lucky they haven't already in retaliation for his continued abuse and attitude towards the public.

This big picture on this issue is ethics and taste. And I have a feeling that "if" he decided he's going to sell something he didn't make on his own, the ethics and taste will speak for themselves. I can't name another author out there who sells compilations that contain other authors' work, there's a reason for that, they have tact. Do I find it tacky that Mazzle wants to no charge money to stay away from questions regarding his addon and some other hodge podge nonsense? You bet. But it doesn't surprise me, not in the least.

We'll see what the other authors do, when and "if" Mazzle decides to do something that blatantly, stupid and elitist.

Then I would pose this simple question to you. If he stripped all of the addons and sold only the work he did that interacts with those addons, would that be ok? From what you're saying, it sounds like it would. So essentially you want folks to go and manually download all of those mods (which are free) and install them after first downloading Mazzle's code. Why do you want to punish us? Just because he includes an addon in the package, doesn't mean he's selling it. The real value is in the configuration, integration, and documentation of the mods as a whole. And I honestly think you're trivializing the amount of effort required to do this. Otherwise, why would folks be so willing to shell out dough for a product that (according to you) is based almost entirely on freely available mods with little-to-no work done by the author.

Auralei · 07-23-07, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Arkive

Then I would pose this simple question to you. If he stripped all of the addons and sold only the work he did that interacts with those addons, would that be ok? From what you're saying, it sounds like it would. So essentially you want folks to go and manually download all of those mods (which are free) and install them after first downloading Mazzle's code. Why do you want to punish us? Just because he includes an addon in the package, doesn't mean he's selling it. The real value is in the configuration, integration, and documentation of the mods as a whole. And I honestly think you're trivializing the amount of effort required to do this. Otherwise, why would folks be so willing to shell out dough for a product that (according to you) is based almost entirely on freely available mods with little-to-no work done by the author.

I'm not doing anything the public at large, and other authors haven't already mentioned. And to answer your question, YES. I would hope he strips that mod clean of anything he doesn't have express permission to sell, or that he didn't WRITE. He's not entitled to any of those addons, or the rights to them, and neither are the users of his paid site! The punishment will come from Mazzle's actions, not me. You will have him to thank if the author's strip their addons out of his compilation.

And stop thinking that everyone is so lazy, most people configure their own addons, Mazzifier is just a lazy man's way to do it. A lot of people have moved far beyond that now, hence why I can copy the stupid thing with other addons! So, we still have an ethics issue. I couldn't care less if people don't see the writing on the wall here. I'm just going to sit here, in my home and watch Mazzle wallow in his own misery because he makes it for himself, and this is a shining example of WHY.

My end of this is over, I said what I came to say, and now I wait for the happenings.

Oh, and I thought I'd add this. People are angry because he wants to sell access to a site that offers other people's code, and not release it to the public at large, him being an elitist and wanting to fatten his wallet for his time compiling video game addons. Ridiculous.

joive · 07-23-07, 08:39 AM

For me it was clear from the beginning. The description in the first Threat made a clear point that he was only offering his contributions. He could just as easily make only his add-ons available there, and people could download the other components on their own. What you don't understand about that Auralei? Never seen Membership based sites before? If you like to "easily copy" the look of MazzleUI with other mods because is not revolutionary for you, good for you. Maybe you don't need assistance or support with your "custom compilation", but most of the people do. The words blatantly, stupid and elitist used in your post shows your personality. I don't know your reasons for those adjectives but I can imagine what is behind them. Mazzle has always shown respect for the Authors of the Add-ons in His compilation and many people know and use that add-ons because of his compilation. Trying to start an issue with Mazzle and the Authors of the Add-ons will not succeed. We all appreciate the creativity, time involved and knowledge of all the authors involved, and they know that. I wish i could write Add-ons and I wish I had the time and knowledge to make a Compilation as good as MazzleUI, but I don't and thats why I valuate the work of the people that can, and I am willing to pay for it.

I was expecting (and I think Mazzle too) this kind of "I hate your UI and I hope you destroy yourself with arcane missiles" posts. I wont list the the reasons that I think are behind the posts, but some people may recognize some basic human feelings here. And in my experience, this are signs that shown the Membership based site has potential. These kind of posts are like 50 positives votes in a poll to me.

I strongly disagree with your opinion about the "minimal contribution" of the compilation and that was discussed before. I thank you for this extraordinary constructive contribution in behalf of what so many of us want, to Mazzle to continue this project.

ps. English is not my primary language. I'm trying my best to write something readable. Excuse me if I fail.

Auralei · 07-23-07, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by joive

For me it was clear from the beginning. The description in the first Threat made a clear point that he was only offering his contributions. He could just as easily make only his add-ons available there, and people could download the other components on their own. What you don't understand about that Auralei? Never seen Membership based sites before? If you like to "easily copy" the look of MazzleUI with other mods because is not revolutionary for you, good for you. Maybe you don't need assistance or support with your "custom compilation", but most of the people do. The words blatantly, stupid and elitist used in your post shows your personality. I don't know your reasons for those adjectives but I can imagine what is behind them. Mazzle has always shown respect for the Authors of the Add-ons in His compilation and many people know and use that add-ons because of his compilation. Trying to start an issue with Mazzle and the Authors of the Add-ons will not succeed. We all appreciate the creativity, time involved and knowledge of all the authors involved, and they know that. I wish i could write Add-ons and I wish I had the time and knowledge to make a Compilation as good as MazzleUI, but I don't and thats why I valuate the work of the people that can, and I am willing to pay for it.

I was expecting (and I think Mazzle too) this kind of "I hate your UI and I hope you destroy yourself with arcane missiles" posts. I wont list the the reasons that I think are behind the posts, but some people may recognize some basic human feelings here. And in my experience, this are signs that shown the Membership based site has potential. These kind of posts are like 50 positives votes in a poll to me.

I strongly disagree with your opinion about the "minimal contribution" of the compilation and that was discussed before. I thank you for this extraordinary constructive contribution in behalf of what so many of us want, to Mazzle to continue this project.

ps. English is not my primary language. I'm trying my best to write something readable. Excuse me if I fail.

*sigh* I hate it when someone says something that I just have to reply to.

Mazzle's intentions in his first thread weren't made known until after someone had thought about having a donkey BBQ with Mazzle as the special main course. And, to be honest, I really believe he figured no one would throw a fit, but found out a little differently.

What people FAIL to realize is that Mazzle would be nothing without author's like Lozareth, just to name ONE. So.....Mazzle's going to only offer HIS contributions, eh? Well, that compilation just won't look the same minus addons like Discord Unit Frames, now will it? He didn't re write anything for DUF, he just programmed his own settings into it, and I already pointed out how the 3D models are easily aquired. So, he's going to remove DUF? I'll believe THAT, when I see it.

And yes, it is good for me that I can duplicate his UI with better running addons, I could also release that, if I felt like it. See where I'm going with this? Mazzle is such a stickler for keeping certain parts of his addons private, like the HUD and the 3D models....I'll bet he'd die twice if someone threatened to release his UI without his consent. Someone could release a carbon copy of his UI, using addons that don't use so much memory, FOR FREE. I think that might put a small ding in his business options. Plus, a lot of people have just move away from MazzleUI now, there's a zillion mod packs out there in all shapes, sizes and colors. His doesn't lack in functionality, and I will give it that, but it's easily duplicated, and his work alone does not a compilation make. He'll spend an eon and a day coding addons that do the equivalent of what he's got to strip out of it.

But, make no mistake, people didn't miss what was said in the first first post of that thread, they caught it, I wasn't the only one, several well known authors did as well. And so did some of the John Q. Public that Mazzle detests so much, because I heard about all of this from a guildmate, who was mad as a hatter.

No, I'm sorry, Mazzle did a lot of work, but nothing close to the work put into all 30+addons he includes in that compliation, setting them up doesn't count, we've all done that 1000 times. So, I say minimal because in comparison, it is. If Mazzle doesn't continue his work on his UI, someone else will come along and either offer a copy, or something better will come along. I realize "some" people want him to continue, but a lot of people have realized long ago that Mazzle does nothing for the people, he does it for himself.

My opinion is, there are a lot of sheep in this world. When Mazzle gets fed up with his paid users, he will treat them exactly as he's treated the public. His history will speak for itself.

joive · 07-23-07, 10:51 AM

"Be mindful of your feelings, fear, anger, and hate, all are paths to the dark side"

Yoda

Arkive · 07-23-07, 11:08 AM

Auralei,

I'm not sure why you're so angry. You act like he's stealing something near and dear to you. It's clear we see things differently, but alas, I'll try one last time, then I'll give up. His compilation takes great mods, and makes them better. He's not selling THOSE mods, he's selling the means to utilize those mods in a better way then most people are capable of doing. He can "strip" the mods out as you say and release it, but people are free to download the mods themselves. I'm begging you to answer this question...what does that accomplish? He isn't selling DUF, he's selling the means to have it configured automatically. He isn't selling SCT, he's selling his layouts at different resolutions, once again, automatically configured. The mods are merely included as a nicety to those using his Mazzifier. Yea, you try to use it without DUF it won't work right, but he can strip out DUF and we can download it and it still works just fine and he hasn't breached any rules at all. One last time, what does that accomplish? It's like you wanna make him do something just because you can, even though it accomplishes nothing because in the end, the mods are free to download.

What did he do to piss you off? Is it because he said something snarky to you in the forums? Maybe you covet the attention he receives from so many folks for his work. Who knows, but it's clear you have an axe to grind.

Auralei · 07-23-07, 11:53 AM

I'm not angry, I'm amused. I used to be angry at Mazzle, yes. I was angry at him for his treatment of the users of his addons. He acted like they were lesser human beings because they asked questions of him. I was also angry at the Mazzlegasm fiasco, his attitude on it was appalling.

Now, is another story, now I'm just amused. It's amazing to me that one person can be so self important that they would even consider yanking their compilation away from the public to avoid questions and the normal mundane issues. Also so self important to think that because they're done with WoW, the users of their compliation should PAY THEM.

I came in this thread by hearing about the other one from a guildmate, so I came to shed some bitter realities on this subject. That reality being that his UI can be copied, and likely will be if he goes this route, and that he's really only doing it to stick it to the public again. Also, that he really has a lot of legal mud to wallow through if he doesn't strip it down to just his own code. Most likely , anyway. Mazzle also asks for a lot of the flack he gets, sadly. If his treatment of the people that come to this site and seek his help were a bit lighter handed, maybe people wouldn't think he was a jerk deluxe.

It's amusing, and that's why I sit here watching and waiting. I'm not alone.

It isn't about me, it's about his following, most of which he's treated very rudely.