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03-24-09, 04:00 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by Mazzlefizz View Post
I just had an intense...umm...I guess brain fart. I forgot what I was going to say.

Bad Tekkub! Yeah, that's it.

I truly miss that emote, and your pretty intense interpretation of how a UI -should- be. I've never enjoyed wow more than I did while using MazzleUI. After everything that has come about in regards to the 'user's attitudes' (entitlement), I'd like to apologize for a few conversations (or comments to be more accurate). You really were appreciated more than people were willing to express. I hope you're doing okay, in whatever you're doing.
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03-24-09, 04:06 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by lordlundar View Post

2. It's my livelihood

I'm gonna sound like a little jerk for this, but bear with me, as I often see this with "I'm a professional programmer" That only has the AddOns in their portfolio. If you are a professional programmer, then why is your livelihood based around a game someone else made that you are simply attaching yourself on? If you are such a good coder as you say, You should be able to make your own programs and charge for them that have no dependencies. I know what the response will be for this: "Blizzard is going to sue us if we do." I'm not talking about a program for WoW, I'm talking about your own programs. Not AddOns or Mods. You want to prove you're a professional, then prove you don't need to hang onto someone else.
You're assuming that they're all children who have nothing better to do with their time than to play with code. Just because addon authors aren't freely handing out their resume` with each addon they create doesn't mean they don't get a regular paycheck from elsewhere for programming that supports their families or themselves. As for creating addons and getting paid to make them or getting donations... apparently you've never heard of supplemental income.

There is not a single addon author out there that needs, or should have to, prove anything to you or anyone else.

Edited for clarity.
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Last edited by Petrah : 03-24-09 at 04:24 PM.
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03-24-09, 04:14 PM   #483
lordlundar
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Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
Well, WoW isn't my livelihood, but it did play a roll in it. When I got my first "real" programming job all I had to show in my portfolio was an assload of wow addons. And that DID help. It showed that I did know how to program, that I was willing to work on open source projects, and most of all that I was dedicated enough to do this FOR FREE. Just because it's for a game doesn't make the coding experience any less valid, and frankly I don't think I'd want to work for someone that thought that.
Not gonna refute that at all, just want to ask if you were saying to potential employers that you were a pro with only the addons in it, or looking to make it a profession? That's where my beef is with that point. I cant exactly hold someone in high regard who calls themselves a professional coder and then depend on another program all the time to make theirs work.

Now then, the second job I landed (yes I work two jobs) was a support job for a repo host (I'm sure *everyone* knows who :P). This one was an interesting situation. I'd been using their free hosting for my addons for some time, so right there I had my proof that I understood their product. When they put up their ad I applied, and in the end got turned down. About a month and a half later, they contacted me because they realized I was a better candidate. Yea, big ego boost there. Some months later I found out that one of the founders (the one I'd talked to when I applied) had worked for gamespot, so I actually ended up working for someone who realized that games were a "real" business, even if they're just stupid entertainment.

So yea, if you think less of people that can make a living off a game, stick it :P
I don't think people who make a living off of games is a bad thing, I didn't say that. Heck, I used to work at EB myself. I know games are a real business and follow it pretty well. But if your entire business is based off one thing that can cut you off at any time, it's not exactly a good business model.

Basically, though you can say you have your current career because of WoW, your source of income is not solely dependent on the game being there tomorrow. But there are people who say they are professionals who if asked to code an independent program, would not be able to.
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03-24-09, 04:16 PM   #484
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I've never claimed to be "professional" in any degree, not skill and certainly not attitude. But when I did go looking for a job, the only thing I had to show for experience was addons.
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03-24-09, 04:19 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by lordlundar View Post
But if your entire business is based off one thing that can cut you off at any time, it's not exactly a good business model.
Strictly because I get some kind of really weird kick out of playing devil's advocate... if you take a hard look at the economy around you, there are few places where that risk is not present these days.

Aside from that, whether or not it is a good business model is not relevant to the conversation really... if it's a bad model, he gets punished for it, if not rewarded... unless you're AIG in which case you can have a horrid model and receive multi-million dollar bonuses for it at taxpayer expense.

Maybe that's what we mod authors need to do... go to Congress and get our own piece of the pie.

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03-24-09, 04:20 PM   #486
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Wipe insurance could be a trillion dollar industry, especially with the idiots trying to raid these days.
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03-24-09, 04:32 PM   #487
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Some thoughts:

Blizzard's standard "non-commercial" ToS probably does genuinely prohibit doing this for a living.

I have read addon code enough to say with some confidence that there exist people whom I'd consider good candidates for a programming job based on reading their addon code -- and others that, well, I wouldn't.

There may be people who are professional programmers, whose work is not publically accessible except for their addons, even if they've been programming for pay for quite a while.

BTW:

http://www.blizzard.com/us/jobopp/designer-ui-wow.html

I wonder if maybe some of the UI developers should be looking at this as an opportunity...

Last edited by seebs : 03-24-09 at 04:36 PM.
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03-24-09, 04:55 PM   #488
lordlundar
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Originally Posted by Silenia View Post
You're assuming that they're all children who have nothing better to do with their time than to play with code. Just because addon authors aren't freely handing out their resume` with each addon they create doesn't mean they don't get a regular paycheck from elsewhere for programming that supports their families or themselves. As for creating addons and getting paid to make them or getting donations... apparently you've never heard of supplemental income.

There is not a single addon author out there that needs, or should have to, prove anything to you or anyone else.
You are right. It doesn't mean they make a professional living elsewhere. That point was more of a pet peeve where some people scream they are a professional coder but if asked to write a program from scratch would panic.

And they don't have to prove themselves to me. I am grateful for the work they do and love the mods and addons they make. But the ability to make addons for use in WoW is a right only in so far as blizzard says it is. They do not own blizzard nor the game, so they do not have the right to tell blizzard how their policy should be.

Originally Posted by spiel2001 View Post
Strictly because I get some kind of really weird kick out of playing devil's advocate... if you take a hard look at the economy around you, there are few places where that risk is not present these days.

Aside from that, whether or not it is a good business model is not relevant to the conversation really... if it's a bad model, he gets punished for it, if not rewarded... unless you're AIG in which case you can have a horrid model and receive multi-million dollar bonuses for it at taxpayer expense.

Maybe that's what we mod authors need to do... go to Congress and get our own piece of the pie.

Admittedly, I laughed with this. Well, at least the last part.

You're right, but the risk has always been there, there's just more shark pools and less nets to work with.

And seeing that the act of generating income from an idea is a business model, it is relevant. Let's look at carbonite for example, seeing as they seem to be the focus of this. They had an idea which generated into the addon (simplified explanation, I know, but I'm not a business major) and decided to charge people for it. Now this addon, and as such their business of charging for it, is solely dependent on blizzard allowing this business model to exist with their program. They are in a business model that is dependent on another company that they have no relationship with. That spells B-A-D in the business world. So when Blizz said no more, they got punished.
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03-24-09, 04:57 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by seebs View Post
BTW:

http://www.blizzard.com/us/jobopp/designer-ui-wow.html

I wonder if maybe some of the UI developers should be looking at this as an opportunity...
Hey, Scott, remember that email where I said Blizzard should hire you?
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03-24-09, 05:25 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by lordlundar View Post
You are right. It doesn't mean they make a professional living elsewhere. That point was more of a pet peeve where some people scream they are a professional coder but if asked to write a program from scratch would panic.

And they don't have to prove themselves to me. I am grateful for the work they do and love the mods and addons they make. But the ability to make addons for use in WoW is a right only in so far as blizzard says it is. They do not own blizzard nor the game, so they do not have the right to tell blizzard how their policy should be.


That goes both ways. Blizzard has no right to tell addon authors that they cannot supplement their income or making a living by getting paid for creating addons. Granted, they do have the right to say that people cannot solicit donations inside of the game.
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03-24-09, 05:27 PM   #491
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I posted this at the other forums, but I'll repost it here because it's of more interest to this crowd anyway.

Think about the WoW programming book. Neat stuff, right?

Now. Imagine, if you will, an addon named Tutorial.

Tutorial is an addon which illustrates a great number of aspects of Lua, FrameXML, and their interactions. It doesn't do anything in particular. It has examples of code to build a scrolling list from dynamically-created frames, but doesn't have any particular content with which to populate the list. It shows how to snoop combat events, but doesn't do anything interesting with the data snooped. And so on, and so forth. All of this is accompanied by copious comments, allowing the reader to easily understand the function of each section of code, even though there's simply nothing tying it together or making it have any impact on gameplay. There may not even be any path of execution in which any of the code is ever executed.

Here's the neat thing:

* Tutorial could be written by an experienced technical writer with no access to WoW.
* Which means it could be written by someone who has not accepted the ToS or EULA.
* It makes absolutely no difference to prospective users whether or not the addon is banned, since it doesn't do anything.

So.

Can you sell this hunk of code, possibly to addon authors who want to learn more about Lua?

It's almost certainly an addon. However, all the arguments about Blizzard being able to blacklist it are irrelevant; blacklisting it has no effect on its utility. There's no reason for the author to bypass a blacklist, because there's no reason for anyone to ever actually unpack this addon inside a WoW install.

So far as I can tell, this is a pretty good example of a test case for the distinction between Blizzard's legal rights and what they said. They seem to have said that you can't sell this addon, but I can't conceive of any way they could enforce this legally. There's no IP infringement, there's no ToS or EULA violation, and no unauthorized addon is ever loaded or used with WoW. I see nothing they can do that gives them any legitimate claim on what you do with this.

Neat, huh!
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03-24-09, 05:55 PM   #492
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Oh, here's a way to make this even worse.

Code review. I sometimes get asked to review patches for code I know nothing about, simply because I am very good at analyzing code in terms of theoretical language or API conformance. I know Lua.

Imagine that I weren't a WoW player, and someone who knew about my background wanted to hire me to review some Lua code, check for possible errors, and so on.

If that code is a WoW addon, this appears to be prohibited by the policy, but... On what grounds? I don't see anything that explains how I can be prohibited from charging my usual consulting rates for something I do professionally.

I'm pretty sure the intent is to ban subscriptions for updates or whatever, but code review for an addon is clearly a service pertaining to an addon, right?
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03-24-09, 06:00 PM   #493
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Fatal from Carbonite has responded on his forums. It's not an official response but a personal reply. As a paying customer of Carbonite, I'm satisfied with it for the moment.
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03-24-09, 06:02 PM   #494
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My brain hurts

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03-24-09, 06:04 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by Silenia View Post
Fatal from Carbonite has responded on his forums. It's not an official response but a personal reply. As a paying customer of Carbonite, I'm satisfied with it for the moment.
I was just about to post that too ... I'll post it here so you don't have to go looking for it.

Originally Posted by faatal (Carbonite)
A personal note from me (not an official response from Carbon Based Creations):

Only God knows the future. Plans are being made. Plans take time. God willing, things will be fine and the reality of what is really going on will become apparent. CBC actually never wanted to release an ads version. Someone else said that they could/should do that. When CBC can announce something, they will.

Take care,
Shawn (faatal)
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03-24-09, 06:04 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Silenia View Post
That goes both ways. Blizzard has no right to tell addon authors that they cannot supplement their income or making a living by getting paid for creating addons.
Yes and no. Blizzard is 100% within their rights to simply say "if you sell your addon for money, we declare it to be unauthorised and per 2.B of the EULA, it may not run within the game client". They can then back that up using their bad addons list or whatever. Blizzard is currently simply saying "you may not sell your addon". I'm pretty sure they can't do that without a big fight over copyrights.

It's that semantic that I am talking about through all of this, and nothing more. I don't care at all if authors may or may not make money from their addons. All I'm looking for is for Blizzard to take a serious look at what is being said in this regard and make sure that they aren't doing something silly. As I've said in other places, I am sure that Blizzard is not sitting there with the attack lawyers waiting for the first person to step out of line (agreeing with Clad here). The threat of legal action as the ultimate action is there to lend weight to the policy assertions but there are many steps in between, probably starting with the banned addon list.

However, if you end up in court at whatever point, for whatever reason, with a EULA that maybe says "we make a claim on how an author may distribute their copyrighted work".... what if they win? The precedent that gets set here is very far reaching and not in a good way.

Last edited by Satrina : 03-24-09 at 06:10 PM.
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03-24-09, 06:05 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by Silenia View Post
That goes both ways. Blizzard has no right to tell addon authors that they cannot supplement their income or making a living by getting paid for creating addons. Granted, they do have the right to say that people cannot solicit donations inside of the game.
Which brings up my first point:

Originally Posted by lordlundar View Post
1. It's my code, It's my right to charge for this.

I agree. It is your right to charge for it. It is also Blizzard's right to block it. Nintendo has been doing this for years, so has Sony and Microsoft with their game consoles and Apple with their Ipod. (probably the best example of policy restrictions going) Just as Blizzard cannot dictate that you cannot charge for your code, you cannot dictate to Blizzard that they have to allow it. They can refuse it access at any time and if they decide the refusal is because you charge for it, so be it.
Most likely, the addon will be blocked, which is well within their rights. I doubt they're going to use it as a stick to order people around. Most likely it's just as a defense if someone complains when their pay-for addon doesn't work.

Think about it, with regards to the game, Blizzard has only filed a lawsuit against one person, and that was the maker of Glider. The reason was a preemptive measure to stop the Glider maker from filing a lawsuit against them for removing loopholes that made glider work.
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03-24-09, 06:08 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
Yes and no. Blizzard is 100% within their rights to simply say "if you sell your addon for money, we declare it to be unauthorised and per 2.B of the EULA, it may not run within the game client". They can then back that up using their bad addons list or whatever. Blizzard is currently simply saying "you may not sell your addon". I'm pretty sure they can't do that without a big fight over copyrights.

It's that semantic that I am talking about through all of this, and nothing more. I don't care at all if authors may or may not make money from their addons. All I'm looking for is for Blizzard to take a serious look at what is being said in this regard and make sure that they aren't doing something silly.
Well yea hehe. I'm having a hard time trying to keep to the facts without letting my personal opinion on the matter interfere. I suck at it, obviously lol.
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03-24-09, 06:18 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by seebs View Post
I posted this at the other forums, but I'll repost it here because it's of more interest to this crowd anyway.

Think about the WoW programming book. Neat stuff, right?

Now. Imagine, if you will, an addon named Tutorial.

Tutorial is an addon which illustrates a great number of aspects of Lua, FrameXML, and their interactions. It doesn't do anything in particular. It has examples of code to build a scrolling list from dynamically-created frames, but doesn't have any particular content with which to populate the list. It shows how to snoop combat events, but doesn't do anything interesting with the data snooped. And so on, and so forth. All of this is accompanied by copious comments, allowing the reader to easily understand the function of each section of code, even though there's simply nothing tying it together or making it have any impact on gameplay. There may not even be any path of execution in which any of the code is ever executed.

Here's the neat thing:

* Tutorial could be written by an experienced technical writer with no access to WoW.
* Which means it could be written by someone who has not accepted the ToS or EULA.
* It makes absolutely no difference to prospective users whether or not the addon is banned, since it doesn't do anything.

So.

Can you sell this hunk of code, possibly to addon authors who want to learn more about Lua?

It's almost certainly an addon. However, all the arguments about Blizzard being able to blacklist it are irrelevant; blacklisting it has no effect on its utility. There's no reason for the author to bypass a blacklist, because there's no reason for anyone to ever actually unpack this addon inside a WoW install.

So far as I can tell, this is a pretty good example of a test case for the distinction between Blizzard's legal rights and what they said. They seem to have said that you can't sell this addon, but I can't conceive of any way they could enforce this legally. There's no IP infringement, there's no ToS or EULA violation, and no unauthorized addon is ever loaded or used with WoW. I see nothing they can do that gives them any legitimate claim on what you do with this.

Neat, huh!
An interesting approach. Like I've been saying, given blizz's history, it will most likely just be banned, and because it's simply used as a training and doesn't even need to function in game, banning it is irrelevant and won't affect the ability to sell it.

Originally Posted by seebs View Post
Oh, here's a way to make this even worse.

Code review. I sometimes get asked to review patches for code I know nothing about, simply because I am very good at analyzing code in terms of theoretical language or API conformance. I know Lua.

Imagine that I weren't a WoW player, and someone who knew about my background wanted to hire me to review some Lua code, check for possible errors, and so on.

If that code is a WoW addon, this appears to be prohibited by the policy, but... On what grounds? I don't see anything that explains how I can be prohibited from charging my usual consulting rates for something I do professionally.

I'm pretty sure the intent is to ban subscriptions for updates or whatever, but code review for an addon is clearly a service pertaining to an addon, right?
I doubt they would go after you simply because you are charging the author of the addon for your services.

At the risk of sounding (but not intending to be) a jerk, you seem to be nitpicking the new policy word for word without knowing of blizzard's intent, expecting they will try to send the legal wolves for the tiniest infraction. My responses stem from an opinion based off their history, which does paint a different picture, one where they know their limits.
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03-24-09, 06:23 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by Silenia View Post
Well yea hehe. I'm having a hard time trying to keep to the facts without letting my personal opinion on the matter interfere. I suck at it, obviously lol.
Hey was it (the policy) poorly worded? Hell yeah! I will be the first to admit it. It needs clarification. And while it might(note the might. We don't know for sure) be a knee-jerk reaction based of the ad version of carbonite, There are a lot of responses from some mod authors and a portion of the user base which can be considered no less.
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