WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 5

Jonno · 03-21-09, 03:17 AM

I see, aimed at the memory hog against others makes much more sense

Presumably this is talking about the addons which sync with others like a certain combat meter (cant think of name at the moment)

I agree with the "PUT DOWN YE PITCHFORKS" though, this policy has been out for less than two days as far as i can tell.

Next Question:
Will the addon user or the creator be to blame?
Who should you penalise for a "rule breaking" addon (to put it bluntly)

Example
If someone decide to use something like KGpanels and put a picture of a topless woman as there interface background, do you blame the user for making the picture, or the author for allowing the freedom of personalising pictures...?

BTW looking for someone to make an interface including topless wimmin

Zyonin · 03-21-09, 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by Tekkub

Wait what? I never said ****, I support the new rules.

The only time you are mentioned in this thread is when I was wondering who said "cyber pitchforks" on the official boards and further added that, it sounded like something you would say. That is all.

Cladhaire · 03-21-09, 05:40 AM

I can't post on the US forums, and the EU forums haven't gone up in flames over this, so I wanted to put down some thoughts here. Many people continue to make over-reaching statements about what this policy DOES and what this policy MEANS. Here are my specific thoughts on what this does (nothing) and what this means (that Blizzard feels they have firm legal standing to take action against those who violate their guidelines for creating addons in extraordinary cases, if they deem it necessary):

The Addon Development Policy as written is not a legally binding document. Until such a time where you agree to the policy in some way you are not in agreement with Blizzard. Please continue reading before jumping or making conclusions.

If Blizzard were to add the policy to the Terms of Use or EULA then every user and developer who opens the client would have the opportunity to agree or disagree with the policy. Blizzard does control the game and if you do not agree with their policies you can choose not to play the game.

In this policy, Blizzard states that they can take action up to and including formal legal action. I am indeed making an assumption here, but I believe that Blizzard developed this policy based on the understanding that they have firm legal standing for taking that sort of action in extraordinary cases. Whether or not you disagree with them, if they believe they can lodge a case against someone who is writing pay-for addons, then that's all they need to file papers to the court.

I also believe that legal action is the absolutely last course of action that Blizzard wants to take. I suspect we will first see users and other developers helping to the police the system, with Blizzard stepping in and directly addressing those who continue to violate their policy. If that is not successful or more expedient action is needed, they can use whatever technology they have to block specific addons. If the author continues to play cat-and-mouse I believe Blizzard could try to take legal action.

A policy is defined as "a course of action adopted for the sake of expediency, facility, etc.". In this case it is a document explaining what Blizzard considers to be appropriate development of addons for World of Warcraft, and lays out what actions they can and will take if they feel justified in doing so. It's a document designed to tell us what is "right" and "wrong" in their eyes, and how they plan to deal with addons that do not abide by the policy.

If the community degenerates to a point where legal action is necessary it won't be on the basis of "X violated policy Y, and that's why we're taking them to court" but instead would be on the legal standing they believe they have. They may be wrong or they may be right.. but a court would have to decide that in some way.

Let's not let it ever get to that point. Blizzard is very clear, they WILL protect their property.

Landrell · 03-21-09, 07:50 AM

Circular arguments are circular!

Ahem!

I've read both threads on here and in the UI & Macros forums of WoW before it got taken down. People are honestly getting up in arms about a game and to be honest, it's quite silly. Yes, I understand that many put time and effort into it and that a few, if not more would like "compensation" for said effort. Have we lost sight of the fact that we're doing it for fun? That giving to the community to make it what it is without looking for some form of "hand out" is the norm now?

I agree with the changes they are making in the policy. I agree to the fact that advertising in game shouldn't be allowed, especially if you don't work for them. They're not saying, "you can't get donations and that's final" to you fine and wonderful Add on Authors, they're just saying, "Don't do it in our game". That's how I'm reading it anyhow. I've only put up a couple of little texture packages here and there that actually use another add on for them to work, but I'm not expecting hand outs for them, only credit where credit is due. And that should go double for the rest here to be honest...

What I would like to see though is some Blizzard lovin' in the form of free game time compensation. This, however, should only go to those that have contributed more than their fair share to the LUA coding and to the designers of stand alone suites like NuI, Tekktub and etc. It could be Blizzard's way of showing their gratitude toward those that go above and beyond the scope of the average code monkey to help make their product better and more enjoyable to the community. How they could implement said SWAG is totally up to them, but I think it would help quell some of the burning chairs and butts in said chairs about this issue.

It's going on 24 hours without sleep.....

I've said my peace.

AsheruWolf · 03-21-09, 07:53 AM

This is going to be civil and clean cause I dont want Cairenn to put a foot up my ass.

After reading this I am inclined to somewhat agree with Blizzard after all WOW is there game and other people making money off there game (While it is done in a number of ways) should be limited by the company that owns the rights to the game. Don't get me wrong I don't agree with everything I think we should have the right to donate to projects as we see fit. I can't help but wonder though how this will effect addons like Carbonite and nUI as the wording of the terms is clear that addons may not charge money / have a version for donations only. I don't want Scott to think I'm picking on him I personally have been using nUI for a long time and if I had a job would gladly send a donation his way. Not for the PRO version but because I know as a programmer myself he has put alot of time and effort into his code. So in recap do I like what blizzard has issued here? Yes and No I still feel that we should have the right to give donations as we see fit but from the stand point of it is Blizzards game I also see valid issues as to why the would post these rules.

***Cairenn*** · 03-21-09, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Landrell

I've read both threads on here and in the UI & Macros forums of WoW before it got taken down.

It didn't get taken down. It got stickied.

Corgann · 03-21-09, 07:59 AM

This gives them the right to ban certain addons.

I foresee certain addons that they perceive as helping a class too much
as being or making said class OP so it can be banned.

I remember a about a year back where a Blizz poster said Carbonite
should be able to charge for an addon..what happened to change the
decision is my question other than Blizz now having complete control
over what we use.

For instance..ppl say Northrend content is too easy. Example..maybe
the make DBM or the like put on banned list..so you won't know when
boss is casting something. Who knows...I know that's not the best example in the world but I just woke up forgive me.

Landrell · 03-21-09, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

It didn't get taken down. It got stickied.

D'oh! I was looking for it and I saw that it was right before I came back here! Thank you for the clarification! I'm going to sleep now...

***Cairenn*** · 03-21-09, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Corgann

I remember a about a year back where a Blizz poster said Carbonite should be able to charge for an addon..what happened to change the decision is my question other than Blizz now having complete control over what we use.

Ummm, I don't think a Blizz employee would ever post something like that. Chances are their Legal Department would have told them not to answer questions like that. Are you sure it wasn't a green post, not a blue one?

Originally Posted by Landrell

D'oh! I was looking for it and I saw that it was right before I came back here! Thank you for the clarification! I'm going to sleep now...

Hehehe, no worries. I'm getting pretty blurry at this point myself.

AsheruWolf · 03-21-09, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

Ummm, I don't think a Blizz employee would ever post something like that. Chances are their Legal Department would have told them not to answer questions like that. Are you sure it wasn't a green post, not a blue one?

Hehehe, no worries. I'm getting pretty blurry at this point myself.

It was a green post a while back... someone was trying to get the authors of Carbonite in trouble cause they didn't want to pay for it. The post was deleted a few days after cause it became a flamefest.

***Cairenn*** · 03-21-09, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by AsheruWolf

It was a green post a while back... someone was trying to get the authors of Carbonite in trouble cause they didn't want to pay for it. The post was deleted a few days after cause it became a flamefest.

Green == volunteer MVP, NOT Blizz employee, thus not able to legally speak for Blizzard.

sweede · 03-21-09, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Tekkub

Signing. It's not somewhere they want to go, but the code has been in place for a long time, and is used by *one* addon out there. If they have to, they will though.

Tek, i love your addons, every single one of them. I use like.. 35? i think.

Anyways, if they start to require code signing and it costs a nominal fee for the key, i'll buy it so i can continue to use panda, buffet, teks*, syc, and so many others i forget.

On to the topic.

While i don't write addons and i don't really support any addon authors, i do write code (mainly php, some lua) and feel that there is a large amount of gray area concerning #5. I would venture to say that no one has an issue with #1,2,4,7,8.

on #3, it took me a while to figure out what they could be refering to, then i remembered.

back in the day when gatherer was all the rage, there was GatherShare..

GatherShare used a hardcoded channel to share data with everyone on the server in your faction. you could also at that time, send/export all of your gather database..

Some one did that, with an absolutly insane amount of data. After being locked up for about 20s, i eventually got DC"d from wow.

#6 is a catchall clause imo. Since addons that are distributed on this site and others like it are freely available by anyone, that anyone could be people that shouldn't need to be seeing the addon content that is rated R and higher...

For #6, I bet blizzard would say "if you want to write an addon w/naked girls, keep it hosted in your members section of your guilds website". But then again, wowinterface would say the same thing and remove those types of addons

Xrystal · 03-21-09, 09:40 AM

As a user of both nUI and Carbonite I wanted to add something in here.

Okay, after writing about 100 lines of banter I decided to re-write it more simply. I hope!

nUI - Lite Version great - Pro Version better
Carbonite - Free Version great - Paid Version not needed

That said I wanted to point out that despite several guild members using nUI Lite and Paid Carbonite neither have asked for a copy of the nUI Pro Version (which isn't account linked) nor offered a copy of Paid Carbonite (which I believe is account linked) but have all mentioned in guild chat and over vent how much they love said addons.

I for one will keep nUI on my wow running as long as is possible and will point interested parties to visit your sites if they want to get either version. Hell, I will even put a link on my own forums showing screen shots where they can go to find out more.

Also, as Scott has pointed out in one forum or another, I wanted to point out that credit where credit is due. Most people will not donate if they don't need to. I wanted those 25 raid frames and knowing how complex that code is (after spending a day figuring out the 3.1 mess ups with it) it was worth the donation.

And on that final note .. I wish all you large addon authors good luck and hope that you do not lose faith that your regular users will not point their friends in your direction even if you can't ask for donations in game.

Dreadlorde · 03-21-09, 10:01 AM

Nice to see Blizzard isn't supporting proprietary addons, even though the game is.

Blizzard gets +1 internets.

Aerador · 03-21-09, 10:30 AM

Wow, this is a sad day for me. I wake up to news from the authors of Quest Helper, Group Calendar, Outfitter, Mappy, and more that they will no longer be supported due to Blizzards new UI Policy. That really sucks!

Then I check me email and see that nUI may go down the tubes as well. There goes all my mods...

I can't donate much but for a mod like nUI I did donate. Not for the "PRO" version as I don't need the larger raid frames but to actually support the author with what little I could donate. I have seen addons that get annoying with the "Please Donate" popups and whatnot but I always figured it was MY CHOICE if I want to run them or not and if I wanted to donate or not. I'm on the side of the authors here. If you make a good mod I don't see any reason you can't put a little plug for a donation to keep that mod alive. I mean it's not like we're seeing banner ads in game.

What I am seeing is banner ads on the WoW front page and in their forums. To me that's worse than asking for a donation in the game for a mod that I CHOSE to download and install and can choose to uninstall if I wish. So those donation ads are MY CHOICE to see them because I want to use the mod.

Excuse the rambling, just woke up so I'm still a little loopy.

I will continue to support authors with the little donations I can no matter what. It's your addons that make the game more fun for myself as well as others with the in-game donation ads or not.

To you /salute

Hhoky · 03-21-09, 10:34 AM

I just have a simple question, Couldn't Blizzard actually be trying to not only protect their own selves but us gamers as well?

In game donation requesting..could potentially break the spirit of RP's. As well as its kind of in line with Gold spammers advertising. (Not saying its the same thing by any means, just saying if your asking for real world money in the game for in game products or in game items (add-ons would be an in game item of sorts, since its only usable in game) and such, its against the rules)

As for the code having to be visible, I am sure many of us know someone who's account was compromised in the last 4 to 6 months, since the amount of people getting hacked skyrocketed during that time. The cause? Who can say, anything from Key loggers, to Lawsuit fallout, to hidden add-on codes perhaps?. Blizzard seems to be not only covering their own butts with all this, but maybe actually trying to cover the users as well.
(Ok, so go ahead a laugh, I know many want to, I can hear it in my head *Blizz do something for the paying customer O.O No way!* yada yada, but I figure if the paying customer gets mad enough, they might try a shot at Blizz...and if they didn't cover this somehow, they might be liable. Yes that means they are only covering their own butts, but we get a a little protection of sorts as well. Win Win? )

As for some of the dirty tricks being pulled on add-on users, because add-on authors are up in arms over the donation requesting in game...poor form. I am surprised to see WoWInterface letting you fool add-on users into wiping their add-on folders under false pretenses. If you want to stop your work, by all means it is your right, but to mess with Users computers...that's a thin line you are dancing on, and one that perhaps is what this new policy by blizzard is all about in the first place.

Conjecture over anothers actions will always be a guessing game, and debate is such fun.
I applaud Tek for looking on the bright side. Users will still use add-on's, fans will still donate gladly, and Authors will still create out of the job of giving life to an idea.
Happy Gaming ~ Hh

Eggi · 03-21-09, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Hhoky

I just have a simple question, Couldn't Blizzard actually be trying to not only protect their own selves but us gamers as well?

In game donation requesting..could potentially break the spirit of RP's. As well as its kind of in line with Gold spammers advertising. (Not saying its the same thing by any means, just saying if your asking for real world money in the game for in game products or in game items (add-ons would be an in game item of sorts, since its only usable in game) and such, its against the rules)

As for the code having to be visible, I am sure many of us know someone who's account was compromised in the last 4 to 6 months, since the amount of people getting hacked skyrocketed during that time. The cause? Who can say, anything from Key loggers, to Lawsuit fallout, to hidden add-on codes perhaps?. Blizzard seems to be not only covering their own butts with all this, but maybe actually trying to cover the users as well.
(Ok, so go ahead a laugh, I know many want to, I can hear it in my head *Blizz do something for the paying customer O.O No way!* yada yada, but I figure if the paying customer gets mad enough, they might try a shot at Blizz...and if they didn't cover this somehow, they might be liable. Yes that means they are only covering their own butts, but we get a a little protection of sorts as well. Win Win? )

As for some of the dirty tricks being pulled on add-on users, because add-on authors are up in arms over the donation requesting in game...poor form. I am surprised to see WoWInterface letting you fool add-on users into wiping their add-on folders under false pretenses. If you want to stop your work, by all means it is your right, but to mess with Users computers...that's a thin line you are dancing on, and one that perhaps is what this new policy by blizzard is all about in the first place.

Conjecture over anothers actions will always be a guessing game, and debate is such fun.
I applaud Tek for looking on the bright side. Users will still use add-on's, fans will still donate gladly, and Authors will still create out of the job of giving life to an idea.
Happy Gaming ~ Hh

Why do you need addons for your RP-needs? If YOU decide to use an addon then it was YOUR decision to get everything that is included ... also the negative sides like donation requests.

And also addons that are encrypted somehow are easily readable as they have to be decrypted when the code is executed ... so it is not that hard to get the real code.

I also don't really think that their ui policy is something that would stop authors from taking money, because selling a few text files with lua code (or even some encrypted crap) inside is something that blizzard can't forbid to do.

stabbarella · 03-21-09, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

Ummm, I don't think a Blizz employee would ever post something like that. Chances are their Legal Department would have told them not to answer questions like that. Are you sure it wasn't a green post, not a blue one?

Oh I recall that post too, which is WHY I paid for Carbonite, because Blizzard specifically said they supported paid addons.

I can't find the post of course, but I do recall it.

MadCow · 03-21-09, 11:24 AM

Im all for the change of policy.
Its not like mod authors create anything new. what blizzard gives us to work with is just combined and made accessible in new different ways. There really isnt any form of Intellectual property rights owed to modders other than maybe custom art?
asking for donations for time spent seems perfectly fine to me. subscriptions or purchasing addons does not.

Astrocanis · 03-21-09, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by MadCow

Im all for the change of policy.
Its not like mod authors create anything new. what blizzard gives us to work with is just combined and made accessible in new different ways. There really isnt any form of Intellectual property rights owed to modders other than maybe custom art?
asking for donations for time spent seems perfectly fine to me. subscriptions or purchasing addons does not.

I have a problem with this attitude, actually. My problem is less policy and more intent. Where, in your philosophy, do subscriptions go wrong? You are free to code your own mod that does the same thing, personalized to your heart's content. You are also free not to use the mod. For some reason, folks with your viewpoint seem to feel that they should be able to determine not just the content and usability of mods, but also the contribution levels of the authors. To be clear, mod authors are under no obligation whatsoever to cooperate with or accede to your demands on their time or their intellectual property. Your arguments are a bit specious, to boot. If I choose to paint in oils, the fact that someone sold me a canvas and paints does not make the painting theirs. Even if all I do is license the canvas. It's still my effort and my creativity. Or would be, if I had any.

If you want to be honest, WoW owes Games Workshop, the overall Lua community and the provider of their C++ / Java compilers a cut of the action. Because, like every other software license, they are allowed to use the software they found their product on, but they don't own it.

If there is a challenge, it will be along the lines of a "fair use" violation.

Why is it so important to restrict others? I know that there are a ton of people that feel that way. What I don't understand is why.

You feel Blizzard is justified. Maybe they are - I think IP is an easy term to misapply and is open to large amounts of ambiguity. Their methods of enforcement could have been inclusive. They chose to follow the lead of that most venerable institutions, the IRS, in their methods.

They didn't participate with mod authors. They are dictating. I think that's a mistake.

And these threads, as well as those on Carbonite and the WoW forums, are the reason that I have never posted my addons on any site. And, given the apparent disregard (indeed, even contempt) that Blizzard is showing to what is arguably the most agreeable, most intelligent, and least drama-producing customers in their entire base, I'm not sure I will continue to play the game at all.

They set a bad precedent, here.