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10-06-06, 07:51 PM   #1
Cairenn
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TBC UI Changes

Okay, since the changes are rather sweeping, here's a place to discuss. As always, the rules of the site apply. Keep it civil folks.

No hysteria. No freaking out. Thoughtful rational discussion. Read the changes. Take time to understand them. And realize that it still isn't live, Blizz is no doubt still working away. There are probably more details yet to come.

/edit - An excellent read about the changes.
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Last edited by Cairenn : 10-09-06 at 08:45 PM.
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10-06-06, 07:58 PM   #2
JoshBorke
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holy snikies batman!

let me be the first one to say i'm intrigued by these new changes. it'll take a while to properly parse all this information. perhaps someone far wiser than I would like to give a rough overview of the implications of these changes?
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10-06-06, 08:01 PM   #3
endx7
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I'm not -happy- that the changes were made, but everything that we need to do that isn't bot-like to should still be doable.
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10-06-06, 08:02 PM   #4
mikk
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Well.. I can see how they want automatic targetting and spell casting gone from combat... But couldn't they allow it OUT of combat?

Manual buffing and all that is only mind-bogglingly boring and has very little to do with what boss you'll manage to kill :-P
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10-06-06, 08:12 PM   #5
endx7
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hmm, I wonder if whispercast is still doable. (I'm doubtful)

Although, the only reason I really have it is to find a name in a group of 40 people. With 25 person maximum raid instances, this shouldn't be as much of an issue.
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10-06-06, 08:45 PM   #6
Cirk
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These changes will kill quite a few addons (including my own Blessings, Autorank, and Fastcast) that make life bearable for a lot of players. I personally disagree very much with Blizzards stated "do it all by hand, sans addons" direction, since quite fundamentally it negatively impacts the majority of Blizzard's player base, while only temporarily (if at all) reducing botting.

But then this is an old argument with Blizzard in regards to WoW, and they've never listened before

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10-06-06, 11:46 PM   #7
Tuller
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I'm glad they've finally broken Decursive, it was too close to the line of being a bot. Click casting, in that using a mouse button to cast a spell on a specific unit, should still work.

It looks like I'm going to have to put in quite a bit of work into Bongos. Mainly, I wonder how I'm going to deal with any non-standard stance switching: prowl, moonkin, ranged, and enemy/friendly bars.
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10-07-06, 03:13 AM   #8
Corrodias
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Click casting, in that using a mouse button to cast a spell on a specific unit, should still work.
I don't see how you arrive at the conclusion that, while we're not allowed any more to click on a frame to cast a spell to remove debuffs, we'll still be allowed to click on a frame to cast a spell to heal. Click-casting will die with the rest of them, no?

But then there's this, which just confuses me as to what they want to do: " Just to clarify, AddOns and macros will still be able to cast spells (with user interaction of course), they just won't be able to use logic to intelligently pick spells or targets. "

Last edited by Corrodias : 10-07-06 at 03:15 AM. Reason: typo
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10-07-06, 04:11 AM   #9
JIM the Inventor
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Originally Posted by Tuller
I'm glad they've finally broken Decursive, it was too close to the line of being a bot.
I don't get this sentiment. I use Decursive as a druid. It seems invaluable in raids. Human beings being what they are - and I'm talking about the folk in front of the computer screens, not in them - our lives are greatly enhanced by these tools.

I can't take down a 10-man, 20-man, or 40-man target solo - can you? They just do way too much damage. They also never make a mistake within the bounds of their programmed behavior. Now I'm rambling a bit here, but what I've trying to say is, without some automation, these monstrosities just cream my group. Delay on my side means someone dies.

You might say that I should learn to play faster, or better. I say that's not a gamer-friendly attitude.

Like Cirk, I may have to throw in the towel on this business.
I make AddOns to enhance my play style, not replace it, and not so I can fight through digital lockdown.

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I think I may have to apologize to Cairenn here for coming into this thread uneducated as to exactly what slouken means. I saw Cairenn's copy of his statement, and his statements up to the end of page 1 of a 20 page thread. I would have read more, but that's an awful lot of pages to go through.

Last edited by JIM the Inventor : 10-07-06 at 04:15 AM.
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10-07-06, 08:10 AM   #10
tntrkdrvr
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Unhappy spell casting

No more decursive or benecast???
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10-07-06, 08:52 AM   #11
99ta316
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The problem with many of the functions they are breaking, it allowed unattenant boting, and cleansing way too easy in PvP. It was never intended for someone to stand back and just click a big flashing button in the middle of their screen to cleanse the whole raid. So the people you should be complaining to, are well yourselves if you used this addons/mods. For expoliting this code that blizzard allowed you to use as a cructh. Its their game. People have complained about boting since day 1. People have complained about macros to cleanse people randomly in the raid during PvP. So now they break that, since these functions were actually game breaking to those that wanted to have fun, not the most macros/addons. Now since everyone had to exploit this to the fullest in BoTing and PvP, this will break current PvE encounters for a lot of people.

/flame on because I will not be checking this thread anymore.
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10-08-06, 08:52 AM   #12
Cairenn
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I think this is a good time to re-iterate my opening post:

Originally Posted by Cairenn
As always, the rules of the site apply. Keep it civil folks.

No hysteria. No freaking out. Thoughtful rational discussion. Read the changes. Take time to understand them. And realize that it still isn't live, Blizz is no doubt still working away. There are probably more details yet to come.
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10-08-06, 09:34 AM   #13
Dhargo
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A few things that people are forgetting -

1, The new TBC encounters are being designed with this in mind. Slouken flat out said that, one of the motivators for this change was so that the encounter designers didn't have to take decursive like mods into account when designing encounters.
2. You won't have 40 players to look at - you'll have 25
3. Downranking is taking a hit - spells below level 40 will see far less benefit from +heal gear.
4. Player HP is scaling faster than any other factor in the game - this should give some breathing room for spot-healers.
5. While a clickable emergency monitor is not doable anymore, you can always have an emergency monitor (sortable) that has bright glowing pointers to the unit-frame of the affect person (meaning no hunt and peck). I'm already working on the animation code for something like that.
6. Slouken is looking into implementing a combo keys approach to keybindings (using the menubuttons) based on a lot of our feedback. Take a druid healing a single group for instance (this scales, btw) using just the keys 1-5. Pressing a key opens the UnitFrame's menu button and remaps the keybinds to those newly opened buttons (which are your heals), pressing another key casts the spell, collapses the menu (optional) and resets the binds.

1,1 = rejuvenation on you
1,2 = regrowth on you
1,3 = healing touch on you
2,1 = rejuve on party 1

and so on. Many of us have requested the functionality, and slouken wants to put it in. Slouken's been pretty good in the past about getting us things like this.

Now, some of this may take some time -- but the 2.0 client will be on the PTR (slouken has said so), even though we won't get to test the new content, we can test the new UI and write new addons to make healing better.

Before the "oh, you play a DPS class, you don't know squat" stuff comes up - My first main was a paladin (for the year between release and 1.9). All my first mods centered around staying aware of my party's (and then raid's) condition and simplifying executing the proper actions on them.

Along with smaller raids, and the fact that 44% of the classes are now healers, a different approach to assigning spot-heal responsibilities would reduce the amount of staring at health bars (and overhealing IMO) -- but that's not a programming discussion, that's a process analysis discussion.

I think the idea that so many healers should be watching an entire raid is misplaced - it contributes to healer stress and to overhealing. There are ways to reduce the number of people a healer is paying attention to that leave massive redundancy in coverage, and flexibility for when a healer dies.
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10-08-06, 10:25 AM   #14
Beladona
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Originally Posted by Dhargo
A few things that people are forgetting -

1, The new TBC encounters are being designed with this in mind. Slouken flat out said that, one of the motivators for this change was so that the encounter designers didn't have to take decursive like mods into account when designing encounters.
2. You won't have 40 players to look at - you'll have 25
3. Downranking is taking a hit - spells below level 40 will see far less benefit from +heal gear.
4. Player HP is scaling faster than any other factor in the game - this should give some breathing room for spot-healers.
5. While a clickable emergency monitor is not doable anymore, you can always have an emergency monitor (sortable) that has bright glowing pointers to the unit-frame of the affect person (meaning no hunt and peck). I'm already working on the animation code for something like that.
6. Slouken is looking into implementing a combo keys approach to keybindings (using the menubuttons) based on a lot of our feedback. Take a druid healing a single group for instance (this scales, btw) using just the keys 1-5. Pressing a key opens the UnitFrame's menu button and remaps the keybinds to those newly opened buttons (which are your heals), pressing another key casts the spell, collapses the menu (optional) and resets the binds.
......
Well written IMHO
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10-08-06, 10:27 AM   #15
Cairenn
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Something I'd like to point out here. It's still not even in beta yet, let alone on PTRs, I doubt that a) they are finished and b) all the information is actually out yet.
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10-08-06, 11:37 AM   #16
yutt
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I think it's a terrible decision. The reason such mods exist, is not, as some claim, because most players are bad. It's because removal of debuffs is not entertaining. People play the game to have fun. Most non-masochists don't enjoy staring at 40 bars (or even 25) the entire fight.

This is why healing classes aren't popular. The healing game is based around the UI instead of the game environment. Havng a robust UI made this bareable for players like myself (a Priest). Instead we've again taken a step 20-years back in gaming to whack-a-mole.

It's not fun Blizzard. If you have a problem with Decursive-esque mods being required, then implement it into the default UI. Don't do something that emphasizes the most tedious and annoying aspect of the game.
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10-08-06, 12:29 PM   #17
Benea
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Originally Posted by Dhargo
A few things that people are forgetting -

1, The new TBC encounters are being designed with this in mind. Slouken flat out said that, one of the motivators for this change was so that the encounter designers didn't have to take decursive like mods into account when designing encounters.
2. You won't have 40 players to look at - you'll have 25
3. Downranking is taking a hit - spells below level 40 will see far less benefit from +heal gear.
4. Player HP is scaling faster than any other factor in the game - this should give some breathing room for spot-healers.
5. While a clickable emergency monitor is not doable anymore, you can always have an emergency monitor (sortable) that has bright glowing pointers to the unit-frame of the affect person (meaning no hunt and peck). I'm already working on the animation code for something like that.
6. Slouken is looking into implementing a combo keys approach to keybindings (using the menubuttons) based on a lot of our feedback. Take a druid healing a single group for instance (this scales, btw) using just the keys 1-5. Pressing a key opens the UnitFrame's menu button and remaps the keybinds to those newly opened buttons (which are your heals), pressing another key casts the spell, collapses the menu (optional) and resets the binds.

1,1 = rejuvenation on you
1,2 = regrowth on you
1,3 = healing touch on you
2,1 = rejuve on party 1

and so on. Many of us have requested the functionality, and slouken wants to put it in. Slouken's been pretty good in the past about getting us things like this.

Now, some of this may take some time -- but the 2.0 client will be on the PTR (slouken has said so), even though we won't get to test the new content, we can test the new UI and write new addons to make healing better.

Before the "oh, you play a DPS class, you don't know squat" stuff comes up - My first main was a paladin (for the year between release and 1.9). All my first mods centered around staying aware of my party's (and then raid's) condition and simplifying executing the proper actions on them.

Along with smaller raids, and the fact that 44% of the classes are now healers, a different approach to assigning spot-heal responsibilities would reduce the amount of staring at health bars (and overhealing IMO) -- but that's not a programming discussion, that's a process analysis discussion.

I think the idea that so many healers should be watching an entire raid is misplaced - it contributes to healer stress and to overhealing. There are ways to reduce the number of people a healer is paying attention to that leave massive redundancy in coverage, and flexibility for when a healer dies.
1. I'm really not holding my breath that they won't have encounters post TBC that won't need the furious clicking of dispel/cure disease. Mass dispel will alleviate some of this with prior organization of when to clump within 15 yards and when to spread out. I have no idea what druids and mages will do. I suppose you can use shaman totems for some, but then in a raid of 25, you'd need 5 shamans (which will affect raid balance quite a bit).

What will happen is probably some poor sots will become the primary dispeller/decurser/depoisoner and just do that the whole raid, and they get to stare unblinkingly at 25 raid bars.

2. Thank goodness for this.

3. I can adjust to this, I'll just use level 40+ ranks of spells.

4. Haven't heard of this one except from you. This will help if true, I agree.

5. The emergency monitor you describe will be more of an encumbrance to me than help, and more likely, I just won't look at it. Just use the main raid frames then, why have 2 things you have to stare at and 1 additional frame to clutter the screen?

I think what will happen is what Maia is planning on doing (Grid), or the whole raid frame will become the monitor (meh) where people who don't need heals fade and you'll have a visual aid on who's the lowest on hitpoints (like a giant static EM). I'll probably end up using Grid, which, ironically, looks like a whack-a-mole setup. Someone's already suggested, that Maia should animate moles popping out of them as the person loses hp.

6. I'll have to try this to see if I like it, if implemented. Hitting 2 or 3 button presses to cast one spell seems like a lot of steps to do one thing.

One thing I won't use are the menus (drop down/radial) they are planning. I hated it in SWG. I just hope it won't be required for me to use them to be competitive.

Last edited by Benea : 10-08-06 at 12:44 PM.
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10-08-06, 07:05 PM   #18
JoshBorke
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The changes to SpellCasting events really seem like they answered all the questions we asked for. We no longer have to pass around the spell targets through the addon channes and we will be able to get cast information for all members in our raid/party (woohoo!). I have no idea how UNIT_SPELLCAST_START and UNIT_SPELLCAST_SENT differ and what exactly they are going to be used for. This change will also eliminate a TON of combat parsing. No longer will I (as the author of HealWatch) have to scan for 'Bob heals Fred'. I am curious why UnitCastingInfo doesn't go ahead and return target information, but that's easily doable from cating UNIT_SPELLCAST_START and saving a variable.

I'm not exactly sure how we'll use UNIT_TARGET event because we'll be able to get spell target information from the other event, but I'm sure someone will think of something.

I don't understand why scripts cannot complete trades while out of combat. I think that it sucks to be a mage handing out water at the start of raids. Anything to make your life easier i'm all for .

that's all i have for now...
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10-08-06, 09:01 PM   #19
Lichbane
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Not happy. Not happy at all. Playing a healer will be just that more difficult.

But that's not to say mod authors can't adapt. Could you, based on the target selected, color-code your healing buttons (Red through to Green to represent "Too Low - Target will Die!!" to "Overheal") to visually aid the caster? Could you make your cleansing buttons turn purple if the target needs a debuff removed?

If you can't have the client decide, can you look at making it easier for the player to decide?

I'm just throwing some ideas around ....

Last edited by Lichbane : 10-08-06 at 10:54 PM.
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10-09-06, 12:17 AM   #20
Pane
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Originally Posted by Dhargo
1, The new TBC encounters are being designed with this in mind. Slouken flat out said that, one of the motivators for this change was so that the encounter designers didn't have to take decursive like mods into account when designing encounters.
2. You won't have 40 players to look at - you'll have 25
that might be the case for new content, but what about the old content? It's easy enough for me; for the cleaning tools I have I can use a totem. I'll just deprioritize other groups and stomp poison cleaning; and be on my merry way.

mages, druids and priests aren't so lucky. manually selecting people (pick from 40) and then manually clicking a decursing spell in a 40 man raid (yes they'll still exist after wow 2.0) to get rid of Impending Doom or such will NOT be fun. not to mention that it will take a long time to do, to the point of people dieing.

Heal size selection I can live without. It's decursive that has me worried
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