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10-12-09, 03:16 AM   #1
BWarner
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AeroWow

Hey there! Wanted to get the word out about my not-so-new blog, http://aerowow.com/ . It's a DPS Warrior's (that's me!) take on DPS Warrior-ing and WoW in general.

Check it out, tell me what you like, and what you'd like to see more of! Any feedback is always appreciated, either here, on through email. ;)

(In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have named the site after my character. A server transfer mandated a name change, and Aerowyn no longer exists. :( )
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10-15-09, 10:45 AM   #2
BWarner
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As a total coincidence, my latest post is UI-related.
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10-15-09, 11:04 AM   #3
Republic
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Originally Posted by BWarner View Post
Hey there! Wanted to get the word out about my not-so-new blog, http://aerowow.com/ . It's a DPS Warrior's (that's me!) take on DPS Warrior-ing and WoW in general.

Check it out, tell me what you like, and what you'd like to see more of! Any feedback is always appreciated, either here, on through email.

(In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have named the site after my character. A server transfer mandated a name change, and Aerowyn no longer exists. )
Your site was interesting until I came across the article where you recommend runspeed over icewalker or ap on boots for dps warriors. The polite thing for me to say is I don't agree with your logic, although I do understand it. I simply don't see how you can recommend movement speed boosts to actual dps boosts (yes I do understand why you think they are one in the same - I did read it after all). I just don't buy the logic behind it. There aren't too many spots in ANY instance where you want your melee dps arriving on the targets before your tank Thus, that speed boost recommendation (especially for the reasons you gave for recommending it), in my view anyway, is incomplete (the nice way of putting it) at best. Can you name one spot where it's best that melee dps'ers arrive at the target before the tank? Thus, unless your tank has the same speed boost (which if he does, he should uninstall the game as he clearly doesn't understand how to gem/enchant/gear his tank), your own speed to that target is well, irrelevant and a waste.

Anyway, to each his own.
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10-15-09, 12:51 PM   #4
zero-kill
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I agree, and in a non-elitist fashion we would probably kick a tank with +run speed enchants

Last edited by zero-kill : 10-15-09 at 12:53 PM.
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10-15-09, 01:05 PM   #5
Petrah
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Aren't those run speed enchants for PVP?
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10-15-09, 01:49 PM   #6
BWarner
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Getting to Icehowl after Ferocious Butt, getting out of the way of the charge, and getting back on target after the stun/charge. On Twins, running to switch colors for any reason (Touch of [Color], [Opposite Color] Vortex). Faction Champs, given the amount of movement your targets are doing (and the Stam from TV certainly helps, too.)

As a single example from Ulduar, the entire brain room (phase 2) of Yogg absolutely requires runspeed.

There's obviously many cases where the "pure DPS" boot enchants (AP or Hit/Crit) excel, due to the low movement component of certain fights. Jaraxxus, Vezax, and Ignis come to mind (I would even recommend runspeed on XT, due to being able to stay on-target longer before having to run out, and then either charging/intercepting back or, if they're on CD (or you're not a Warrior), getting back faster.

To be perfectly honest, your tank should have Tuskarr's Vitality on their boots, not the 22 Stam one. 7 Stam versus 8% runspeed is pretty clearly in the movement speed's favor in nearly every tanking situation.

TV is "it" for PvP, but the runspeed enchants are fantastic for PvE, as described in the article.

(I love discussing this stuff everywhere, but would also love to discuss it in the comments after the article, so that others can get the benefit of the conversation! =D)
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10-15-09, 03:37 PM   #7
Petrah
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I see. Well, can't argue with that... if you're not lacking in any other stats.
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10-15-09, 08:47 PM   #8
Republic
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Originally Posted by BWarner View Post
Getting to Icehowl after Ferocious Butt, getting out of the way of the charge, and getting back on target after the stun/charge. On Twins, running to switch colors for any reason (Touch of [Color], [Opposite Color] Vortex). Faction Champs, given the amount of movement your targets are doing (and the Stam from TV certainly helps, too.)

As a single example from Ulduar, the entire brain room (phase 2) of Yogg absolutely requires runspeed.

There's obviously many cases where the "pure DPS" boot enchants (AP or Hit/Crit) excel, due to the low movement component of certain fights. Jaraxxus, Vezax, and Ignis come to mind (I would even recommend runspeed on XT, due to being able to stay on-target longer before having to run out, and then either charging/intercepting back or, if they're on CD (or you're not a Warrior), getting back faster.

To be perfectly honest, your tank should have Tuskarr's Vitality on their boots, not the 22 Stam one. 7 Stam versus 8% runspeed is pretty clearly in the movement speed's favor in nearly every tanking situation.

TV is "it" for PvP, but the runspeed enchants are fantastic for PvE, as described in the article.

(I love discussing this stuff everywhere, but would also love to discuss it in the comments after the article, so that others can get the benefit of the conversation! =D)
So, if I may sum up/repeat your point...you prefer your dps warriors to move faster rather than do more damage?

I disagree and for reasons I've already posted, don't see dps movement speed boosts helpful in cases (almost every raid situation) where they don't arrive at targets BEFORE the tank anyway.

Again, to each his own. I don't even consider movement speed boosts anywhere that my primary goal isn't pvp. But, that's me.
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10-15-09, 11:21 PM   #9
BWarner
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Originally Posted by Republic View Post
So, if I may sum up/repeat your point...you prefer your dps warriors to move faster rather than do more damage?
Actually, to finish the first part of that statement, I prefer "my" DPS Warriors, and Rogues, and Mages to all move faster, so as to both deal more damage and to survive longer. Movement speed isn't a gimmick - it's a well-established, well-supported item enhancement. It was the enchant of choice in BC, and it's the enchant of choice in WotLK, for tanks, DPS, and healers alike (except for Paladins/Unholy DKs/Feral Kitties , who get their runspeed from other sources). Check out many top players from all of the 'top' guilds, http://armorylite.com/score/us/all/ *, and note how many are using runspeed. Filter it down to just Warriors (or any other class, for that matter), and see how many tend towards runspeed. It's damage, survivability, and utility packed into one neat little package.

Granted, there are certain fights that it may give limited to no benefit, in which case the "pure DPS" (or effective health, or throughput/regen/burst) boot enchants will beat out runspeed. But, if you had to choose one to stick with as your default enchant, I would highly recommend that one be runspeed.


You keep bringing up a situation where it may be detrimental to have runspeed, due to a DPS potentially reaching a target before the tank. The DPS should never pull a boss before the tank, so where else would you see this situation come up? The only situation I can create in my mind is a DPS standing too close to a Wyrm on Northrend Beasts and aggroing before the boss, but then, that has nothing to do with runspeed, and everything to do with poor play.


*disclaimer: I don't recommend evaluating a player based on the item levels of their gear, but it does serve to filter to some of the more progressed, mechanics-savvy players the WoW community has to offer.
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Last edited by BWarner : 10-15-09 at 11:30 PM. Reason: Added the final paragraph.
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10-15-09, 11:21 PM   #10
shkm
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I agree wholeheartedly with BWarner on this one. With the ludicrous amount of movement involved in modern PvE encounters, who cares for a bit of extra "DPS" if you're not at your target to make any use of it? Just because run speed doesn't increase your immediate damage dealing stats doesn't mean that it doesn't work out to be a net increase in overall DPS. The utility of being able to keep up is also not to be overlooked.

As for a tank, they should always have some form of run speed increase, whether this be from PoJ, boot enchant or any other means. What you lose in comparison is worthless.
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10-16-09, 12:24 AM   #11
Bruners
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Just have two set of boots with different enchants for different purposes, or if you want to spend loads of enchanting materials, enchant different for each fight. tadaa
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10-16-09, 12:58 AM   #12
Republic
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For this reason...

Originally Posted by BWarner View Post
Granted, there are certain fights that it may give limited to no benefit, in which case the "pure DPS" (or effective health, or throughput/regen/burst) boot enchants will beat out runspeed.
I think this is crazy...

Originally Posted by BWarner View Post
But, if you had to choose one to stick with as your default enchant, I would highly recommend that one be runspeed.
...but that's me
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10-16-09, 01:15 AM   #13
Psychophan7
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I understand the logic of taking runspeed over other enchants. Yes, you will be able to move between targets or get back to the target faster, but your actual damage will be lower because of it. The only thing runspeed does is reduces the time it takes for you to return, and thus meters will report an increase in DPS. That's really all the enchant does, is pad the meters by slyly reducing the time.

Furthermore, playing a class/spec where power resources are regenerated, such as DKs (runes) or rogues/feral cats, your DPS output will be hampered. If you get back on target faster, you won't have as much energy (or runes) as you would had you gotten back at normal speed.

Lastly, runspeed is subject to the player. It does not promise increased survivability or more DPS. If the player doesn't move out of the fire, then runspeed didn't do anything to make them survive more. If the player doesn't start moving within one-third of a second in order for them to get back faster than normal. One-third. That means if you were to blink your eyes as soon as you landed, then you'd have to be moving before your eyes opened. And then there is the all powerful variable that spits in the face of runspeed: latency. The average latency in WoW is around 180ms. If you're lagging by so much as half a second when you land, then the increased runspeed isn't going to get you back any faster than if you didn't have the enchant. There's one for the ages: How good is an enchant when it can be affected by latency?
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10-16-09, 02:05 AM   #14
shkm
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Firstly, there's no sly padding of DPS meters. If you're getting back sooner, you're resuming DPS sooner which simply means that you are doing more DPS for the overall fight. Whether or not you compare this to a strict DPS enchant, you are undeniably going to be putting out more DPS. Yes, of course, there is the remote and unlikely chance that you would run out of mana before the end of the fight; but if that's the case, issues lie elsewhere.

Secondly, the enchant is not at all affected by latency. Your misconception is that any time gained is nullified by latency. In fact, time gained through the enchant and time lost through latency are two separate entities. One does not affect the other. If you save 200ms on the trek back to your target, you will save it regardless of your latency.

The argument of resources for energy and runes is a valid one, however in practice I imagine run speed would still beat out the meagre stats you would otherwise gain. Don't forget auto attacks.
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10-16-09, 02:20 AM   #15
BWarner
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Originally Posted by Psychophan7 View Post
I understand the logic of taking runspeed over other enchants. Yes, you will be able to move between targets or get back to the target faster, but your actual damage will be lower because of it. The only thing runspeed does is reduces the time it takes for you to return, and thus meters will report an increase in DPS. That's really all the enchant does, is pad the meters by slyly reducing the time.

Furthermore, playing a class/spec where power resources are regenerated, such as DKs (runes) or rogues/feral cats, your DPS output will be hampered. If you get back on target faster, you won't have as much energy (or runes) as you would had you gotten back at normal speed.

Lastly, runspeed is subject to the player. It does not promise increased survivability or more DPS. If the player doesn't move out of the fire, then runspeed didn't do anything to make them survive more. If the player doesn't start moving within one-third of a second in order for them to get back faster than normal. One-third. That means if you were to blink your eyes as soon as you landed, then you'd have to be moving before your eyes opened. And then there is the all powerful variable that spits in the face of runspeed: latency. The average latency in WoW is around 180ms. If you're lagging by so much as half a second when you land, then the increased runspeed isn't going to get you back any faster than if you didn't have the enchant. There's one for the ages: How good is an enchant when it can be affected by latency?
So, Hit/Crit isn't affected by latency? After all, if you're lagging so hard that moving your character is hampered, then you're probably lagging pretty hard ability usage-wise, too. If it's enough to encumber your movement, then you're most likely over the 250ms (have also heard 300) server-side allowance between abilities, so your actual time between abilities is wasted, thereby lowering the relative value of Hit/Crit or AP.

I absolutely agree that runspeed/stam won't play your character for you. If you stand in your own Legion Flame, you're going to die, runspeed or not. If you stand in Anub's friendly ground spikes, you're going to die, runspeed or not. If you stand in [generic void zone or otherwise bad place to be], nothing aside from a) bubbling if you're a Paladin or b) moving out of it will help. Runspeed will assist you in the running out part, and assist you in getting back on your target and doing your damage to the boss faster, but won't do the actual moving for you.

I will object that it's good for Rogues / DKs to be off-target for longer, even if they are starting with an empty resource tank. 2K auto-attack damage is significantly higher than the 0 running damage. Plus, if you're having to run in the first place, you're still going to be experiencing downtime, allowing your resources to regenerate either way.

It also seems that there's a discrepancy between what everyone here is defining as "DPS" (the value, not the role), and is leading to muddy discussion due to a blurry definition between different people. There's a number of definitions for "DPS": effective DPS (total damage you do over the course of a fight divided by the total duration of the fight), active DPS (the damage over time that you put out, ignoring any downtime of no ability usage), and DPS as a metric (a theoretical damage over time capability obtained through calculation, used as a metric). Runspeed increases your effective DPS (by increasing the total damage that you are capable of doing, due to higher on-target time), and typically does nil with your active DPS (highly situation-dependent, though can go up in situations where you can get to a set of AoE targets before they go down with a WW in the nick of time, or go down in situations where you are low on a resource and are auto-attacking / using cheap abilities while waiting for regen). DPS as a metric is useful for comparisons and further (derivative) calculations, which is how I used, for example, DPS numbers in my original article - as a means of easy comparison.

All that mess of 3AM words really meant to say is... runspeed can potentially lower your DPS, but it will increase your Damage Done. Increasing your damage output is really the goal, right? To get the boss deal more efficiently? I'm confused by this statement: "The only thing runspeed does is reduces the time it takes for you to return, and thus meters will report an increase in DPS. That's really all the enchant does, is pad the meters by slyly reducing the time." The whole point of the runspeed enchant is to get you back on target faster.

If you have to switch from dark to white and back to dark and then get back on the boss on Twins, that's a lot of running time, or rather, a lot of time you're not dealing damage to the boss(es). That entire sequence can easily last 8 seconds - that's a lot of time you're not dealing damage. If you take a portal to Yogg's brain room, you're in constant motion for 20+ seconds, each and every time. That's a lot of time you're not dealing damage to tentacles or the brain.
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10-16-09, 03:42 AM   #16
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I still think it's crazy to have a "situational" enchantment be recommended as a default, especially when you've already agreed it is a situational enchantment. Let me guess, you were also one of those kids who recommended any piece of garbage gear with a little FR on it to be "great for MC" or "great MC gear" irrespective of any of its other stats and whether or not it was an overall upgrade or downgrade to the player? Come on guys, we all remember those people...don't we?
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10-16-09, 04:17 AM   #17
Darxon
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Just remember that you will always do more dps standing on your feet rather than dead on the floor.
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10-16-09, 04:26 AM   #18
shkm
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The enchant is situational. This situation appears in the majority of today's encounters. Where situational condition is met, run speed is arguably superior (EJ has done some theorycrafting to attempt to prove this, but I cannot provide a link).

By the same token, you could say that a pure DPS enchant is situational if it is inferior to run speed unless the fight calls for little to no movement. This case is currently a minority. Thus situation has little to no bearing at this time.
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10-16-09, 04:27 AM   #19
Dridzt
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There is ONE meaningful stat for dps classes.

That is Total Damage done over the course of an encounter.

If a runspeed enchant allows you to stay on the target longer,
you do more damage.

Arbitrary numbers following:
Enter combat - Exit combat
= 300 seconds.

Time running away from target (without runspeed)
to avoid "special move of doom" or switching between targets
= 50 seconds.
Actual damage time
= 250 seconds at an average of 4100 dps.

Time running away from target (with runspeed)
or switching between targets
= 40 seconds.
Actual damage time
= 260 seconds at an average of 4000 dps.
(because you're missing "uber" dps enchant)

Now guess what:
250 * 4100 = 1.025.000
260 * 4000 = 1.040.000

Like I said these are totally arbitrary numbers (pulled out of my a***)
However we have hundreds of thousands of combatlog parses
that permit people so inclined to do statistical analysis and actually
determine how much time is spent "running" in different encounters,
and what the gain from moving faster actually is.

I cannot say if a runspeed enchant beats a different one for every role
but I can definitely judge its relevance among roles.
Melee dps get the most use out of it compared to other roles.
Tanks get "some" use out of it.
(it can be classed as both a threat and situational survivability stat)
Healers/Casters get less use out of it compared to other roles.
Considering PvE only.

Bottomline we all remember those people that only care for seeing "big numbers"
on DPS meter and don't give a **** how much damage they actually did right?
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10-16-09, 05:18 AM   #20
Republic
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Originally Posted by shkm View Post
The enchant is situational. This situation appears in the majority of today's encounters. Where situational condition is met, run speed is arguably superior (EJ has done some theorycrafting to attempt to prove this, but I cannot provide a link).

By the same token, you could say that a pure DPS enchant is situational if it is inferior to run speed unless the fight calls for little to no movement. This case is currently a minority. Thus situation has little to no bearing at this time.
I consider theorycrafting and most of what I read in combat analysis across a few "elitist jerk" type sites to be the stuff that falls out the back end of a horse. Know why? Nothing on any of the math nerd lists takes into account the "human condition". If this were a controlled environment where everything is "ideal", all these nerd analytical types would make more sense (at least to me). As that is not the case and you might have 10 kids who are great at implementing certain mechanics, others may not. Thus, the numbers, while pretty on paper and neato to spew hot air about, are irrelevant. There is absolutely nothing absolutely certain about this game, especially when it comes to raiding, other than random abilities being applied in random environments (no two users are in identical enviornments for example).

Bottom line, none of these numbers are really worth the time it took to prepare them. No two players are alike. You won't even find that many similarities across similar boss encounters. You can run 100 heroic halls of lightning and have 100 different experiences, again because of the human condition.

Playing this game is not about numbers. Good tanking is not about math. It's mostly instinct. Same for dps, healing, etc. Once you learn the "basics" behind the role you choose, that's all you need to learn. A guy whose boots get him out of flames 8% faster is the same as the experienced guy whose instincts tell him when to respond 8% quicker than Johnny Tuskarr. Know what I mean?

The simple fact of the matter is that what truly makes people elite players cannot be captured in a gear score, an enchantment, a pile of steaming theorycraft, etc. It's instinct. Period. Numbers, gear scores (and their mods) do nothing else than serve purposes of vanity when it all comes down to it. Talking about them as facts or absolutes shows a very incomplete method of analysis, which to me is almost completely irrelevant to anything that takes place in the real game.

Tuskarr's Vitality only exists as a default enchantment for tanks and/or melee dps only in the world of math nerds. I don't know of one single tank that uses it and I know a ton of people in my main alliance realm as well as my horde realm. The only people even talking about it are pvp'ers in the realms I play. Hell, agility is a superior enchantment for tanks if you don't go for stamina or whatever. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'm just repeating myself here, so I'll leave the rest of this discussion up to you theorycrafter types.
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