Quantcast WowMatrix Responds! - Page 8 - WoWInterface
Thread Tools Display Modes
05-12-09, 08:09 AM   #141
Bluspacecow
Giver of walls of text :)
 
Bluspacecow's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 770
Hmm just flickering through the wowace forums found this little tid bit by Arrow Master

http://forums.wowace.com/showpost.ph...7&postcount=15

Originally Posted by Arrow Master
it seems the fixAddOnBugsInLuaFiles function (see http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...id=1&pageNo=15 ) was removed
So the function that was fixing so called "addon bugs" is gone. But the one removing Carbonite's copyright is still there. This is after that little FAQ of theirs got posted.

Off to bed 'cause it's so friggin cold in NZ at 2am in the morning (hint I can count the number of degrees we have on one hand )
__________________
tuba_man on Apple test labs : "I imagine a brushed-aluminum room with a floor made of keyboards, each one plugged into a different test box somewhere. Someone is tasked with tossing a box full of cats (all wearing turtlenecks) into this room. If none of the systems catch fire within 30 minutes, testing is complete. Someone else must remove the cats. All have iPods." (http://community.livejournal.com/tec...t/2018070.html)
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 09:32 AM   #142
bknab
An Aku'mai Servant
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by honem View Post
8) Mr says its wrong
^ This! ^
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 09:44 AM   #143
Elhana
A Wyrmkin Dreamwalker
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 51
Still didn't convince me.

I agree addon manager shouldn't mess with error handling options of client since it is a user choise to see them.

I do not agree that temporary fixes should not be implemented at all - some addons may be broken for ages for different reasons, yet addon is still "maintained". Just search for "fan update" here and you'll see how many people actually putting their dirty hands into your cookies, even more if you look for hacks in comments. Actually WoWI shall implement ability to upload custom patches, that would help if someone wants to implement some minor fix without forking addon completely. Examples: Quartz hack for Deaden (BT RoS), recent NeedToKnow self debuffs tracking hacks.

No, that doesn't create any version issues - either updated beforehand and there is nothing for WM to fix or it is "temporary fix" getting updated on both official source and WM when new "official" version comes out.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 10:35 AM   #144
Vyper
A Rage Talon Dragon Guard
 
Vyper's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 317
You just don't get it. It is rarely/never a "fix". It's a hide the error so the user doesn't know anything is wrong. They don't bother to learn how the addon functions in order to fix a bug correctly, they just suppress it. Many of these "typos" they are fixing are intentional misspellings (yes programmers do that).

And yes WoWMatrix does create versioning issues. When the version of the that comes from WoWMatrix doesn't work, and the version I wrote does that is a major issue. Especially since I have no way of knowing that the users reporting this bug are using WoWMatrix, and certainly don't know the changes WoWMatrix is making, so I'm hunting for a non-existent bug in my addon instead of getting something useful done.

Meanwhile of course, even when it is finally tracked down to WoWMatrix there is no bug-reporting functionality on the WoWMatrix page and WoWMatrix rarely if ever responds to authors

WoWMatrixes tinkering helps no one.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 10:40 AM   #145
Shialla
A Deviate Faerie Dragon
 
Shialla's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16
My Take:

Curse IS greedy. The free version of their updater is crippleware IMO.

WoWM probably should have tried harder to reach some sort of accord with WoWI (I seriously doubt any sort of accord could have been reached with Curse)

WoWI if guilty of anything, is guilly of being run by sheeple, who let Curse talk them into blocking WoWM.

In the end the people who are hurt by this is we the users, because as has been said we have to keep track of addons via multiple sites again. As for the people who loudly proclaim they don't need addon updaters, good for you. Some of us have too many to manually check each addon across 2-3 different sites to see if it works.

Sadly in the end, greed is more important than community, c'est la vie.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 10:47 AM   #146
Elesarr
A Fallenroot Satyr
 
Elesarr's Avatar
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by Elhana View Post
Still didn't convince me.

<snip>

I do not agree that temporary fixes should not be implemented at all - some addons may be broken for ages for different reasons, yet addon is still "maintained". Just search for "fan update" here and you'll see how many people actually putting their dirty hands into your cookies, even more if you look for hacks in comments. Actually WoWI shall implement ability to upload custom patches, that would help if someone wants to implement some minor fix without forking addon completely. Examples: Quartz hack for Deaden (BT RoS), recent NeedToKnow self debuffs tracking hacks.

No, that doesn't create any version issues - either updated beforehand and there is nothing for WM to fix or it is "temporary fix" getting updated on both official source and WM when new "official" version comes out.
well I do not personally use fan updates unless the comments includes permission for the original author. 9 times out of 10 a Fan Update is more than just a temporary fix they begin to change the mod in a different direction than it was originally intended - I have been using mods for over 4 years and well acquainted with all flavors of "Fan Updates" which oftentimes introduced taint because the updater had no idea what s/he was doing.

So my cookies remain clean and pristine from nasty evil germs.

and yes it does cause version issues my dear.

Let us say that several someones upload their "Fan Updates" to the WM servers WITHOUT permission from the original author. WM will NEVER see the actual original versions because the author has said no or is luckily on one of the sites blocking WM. So. Now you have all these versions running around that are band-aided and will eventually create some sort of problem - well let's see - WM has no forums or any kind of support - so where do the poor users come to? Oh right - they come here to yell and complain and post about bugs that were fixed ages ago - but the author tries to figure out what the heck is going on cause the COMMUNITY cares about the users.

Need I go on?
__________________
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 10:50 AM   #147
Elesarr
A Fallenroot Satyr
 
Elesarr's Avatar
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by Vyper View Post
<snip>

Many of these "typos" they are fixing are intentional misspellings (yes programmers do that).

<snip>

nod nod....I do that with my web design
__________________
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 10:55 AM   #148
cyberstorm
A Kobold Labourer
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1
What's been quite surprising to me is that no alternative solution to the "bandwidth" problem was figured out. How about some kind of volunteer distribution system? On the top of my head - how about a torrent solution? Put all addons in a single torrent - it's at most a couple of GB. People who want to help out connect to the torrent and download the entire thing then upload to whomever wants. It could be used "out of the box" for patch days for instance, but for long-term use it would require some adaptation since you can't push updates into a live torrent - you must create a new one.
I know that I could and would personally contribute between 90%~25% of my bandwidth to something like that, depending on what I'm doing. It would net around 7TB less load of addon downloads per month if I average at 25%.

Just some ramblings of a spectator with development background.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 10:57 AM   #149
Elesarr
A Fallenroot Satyr
 
Elesarr's Avatar
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by Shialla View Post
My Take:

<snip>

In the end the people who are hurt by this is we the users, because as has been said we have to keep track of addons via multiple sites again. As for the people who loudly proclaim they don't need addon updaters, good for you. Some of us have too many to manually check each addon across 2-3 different sites to see if it works.

<snip>
been there and done that used updaters and am now back to it.

I used to have to check 5-8 websites back in the day BEFORE updaters. and sometimes more if i was looking for something new and shiny.

Please do not cry about entitlement issues unless you have really had to spend time updating addons; 2-3 sites is nothing.

And do not blame people for being greedy because you have to go to 2-3 websites - can your argument get any weaker. I would wager you have already been to more than 2-3 sites on the web today not related to WoW - and not just today - come clean.

Edit:

I really don't want to sound uncaring - if you have read this topic then you would know I was a Matrix user.

I spent yesterday adding RSS feeds to my shiny new Firefox addon "Feedly" now I know when my addons are updated cause the lovelypeoples with addon sites generally have an RSS feed - well curse doesn't - but I can get those few addons via email.

Not tha hard to without an updater and I run over 100 addons - yes its true.
__________________

Last edited by Elesarr : 05-12-09 at 11:06 AM.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 11:10 AM   #150
Zyonin
Coffee powered Kaldorei
 
Zyonin's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,440
Originally Posted by Elesarr View Post
I spent yesterday adding RSS feeds to my shiny new Firefox addon "Feedly" now I know when my addons are updated cause the lovelypeoples with addon sites generally have an RSS feed - well curse doesn't - but I can get those few addons via email.

Not tha hard to without an updater and I run over 100 addons - yes its true.
Use the feeds from CurseForge and WoWAce for Curse as all AddOns hosted on Curse are pushed from either CF or WA (by an author change a tag on their CF/WA project to "Release").

Think of Curse as the retail area of your local auto parts store. There you have the shiny displays and the dudes behind the counter that go get your part. CF/WA is the back of the store where the parts are. CF/WA users know how to use the side door and can find the part they need on the rack themselves.
__________________
LiveJournal | Twitter


Last edited by Zyonin : 05-12-09 at 11:14 AM.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 11:30 AM   #151
Bruners
A Flamescale Wyrmkin
 
Bruners's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by Elhana View Post
Still didn't convince me.

I agree addon manager shouldn't mess with error handling options of client since it is a user choise to see them.

I do not agree that temporary fixes should not be implemented at all - some addons may be broken for ages for different reasons, yet addon is still "maintained". Just search for "fan update" here and you'll see how many people actually putting their dirty hands into your cookies, even more if you look for hacks in comments. Actually WoWI shall implement ability to upload custom patches, that would help if someone wants to implement some minor fix without forking addon completely. Examples: Quartz hack for Deaden (BT RoS), recent NeedToKnow self debuffs tracking hacks.

No, that doesn't create any version issues - either updated beforehand and there is nothing for WM to fix or it is "temporary fix" getting updated on both official source and WM when new "official" version comes out.
The thing is, most AddOn authors don't want other people "fixing" their AddOns without their knowledge. It is in all senses better to release a new AddOn, if that is allowed by the license, with a new name than to make patches without the author knowing about it. If anything, at least contact the author and file a decent bug report and or a diff file.

If the author is MIA for sever months you could also ask the admins take over the project or just re release it under a new name.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 11:35 AM   #152
Spookie455
Illiterate Spectre
 
Spookie455's Avatar
Premium Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by Shialla View Post
My Take:
Edit: Ironically retreading old ground, nm.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 12:58 PM   #153
Verissi
Premium Member
 
Verissi's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 99
Originally Posted by cyberstorm View Post
How about some kind of volunteer distribution system? On the top of my head - how about a torrent solution? Put all addons in a single torrent - it's at most a couple of GB.
*beats head on desk*

A lot of this was covered in many threads on the WoW forums, but there are many reasons why using a torrent solution would be inefficient (grossly so, in many cases) for add-on distribution.

Originally Posted by Elhana View Post
I do not agree that temporary fixes should not be implemented at all - some addons may be broken for ages for different reasons, yet addon is still "maintained". Just search for "fan update" here and you'll see how many people actually putting their dirty hands into your cookies, even more if you look for hacks in comments. Actually WoWI shall implement ability to upload custom patches, that would help if someone wants to implement some minor fix without forking addon completely. Examples: Quartz hack for Deaden (BT RoS), recent NeedToKnow self debuffs tracking hacks.

No, that doesn't create any version issues - either updated beforehand and there is nothing for WM to fix or it is "temporary fix" getting updated on both official source and WM when new "official" version comes out.
Wholeheartedly disagree with this. What you're advocating is the ability to modify and redistribute without working with the actual author, which just causes even more support headaches. If user A has a problem with a silently-"fixed" v1.1 of author B's add-on, that author may waste a lot of time trying to debug code that they didn't write or may not know about (especially if the revision wasn't altered to reflect the modification). It's a catch-22 from a user perspective as well. If WM applies a "temporary fix" but doesn't increment the version number, the author now ends up trying to support a "fixed" version which behaves differently from what was originally written. If they do increment the revision number, the author is equally stumped, not having released that version themselves, and in the worst case, the "fixed revision number" is the same as a new upstream release's revision number....but with different code. In either case, you end up with a frustrated author and frustrated users if problems crop up.

Ideally, all patches should be submitted to the author for consideration and inclusion, and let them determine how they want to handle it. If they decide to leave it broken until they do a rewrite/other implementation...oh well, they're well within their rights to do so. I've personally held back submitted "fixes" in large software projects because the visible bugs revealed a larger issue that I needed to resolve. Sure I could commit the cosmetic fix and release a minor update, but I'd just be doing the same thing we've already talked about: hiding a real bug and pretending I've done something to fix it. In every case, it was better for me to just work on fixing the real problem or find a better solution.

Lastly, remember, the add-ons are effectively "owned" by their authors, not the users. Add-ons certainly don't have a life of their own either (meaning they aren't independent of their authors unless they're "freed" via licensing). If an author wants to quit the game and never relinquish their rights to their code, you may as well forget the add-on and write your own clone of it because you have very few options otherwise.
__________________
"I can calculate the motions of the heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people." - Sir Isaac Newton
"Half of twice as intimidating as Saurfang is still one whole Saurfang worth of intimidation." - Anticlaus, Gorefiend server
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 01:41 PM   #154
Cairenn
Credendo Vides
 
Cairenn's Avatar
Premium Member
WoWInterface Admin
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,098
Originally Posted by Elhana View Post
Actually WoWI shall implement ability to upload custom patches, that would help if someone wants to implement some minor fix without forking addon completely. Examples: Quartz hack for Deaden (BT RoS), recent NeedToKnow self debuffs tracking hacks.
Oh, you mean like the "upload optional plugins or patches" that has been on our site forever. All it takes is for the author to allow it.
__________________
“Do what you feel in your heart to be right — for you’ll be criticized anyway.” ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Co-Founder & Admin: MMOUI
FaceBook Profile, Page, Group
Avatar Image by RaffaeleMarinetti
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 03:16 PM   #155
djrajir
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4
Ok, normally I would not involve myself in pointless disputes such as this one, however I have been dragged into this dispute. So let me start by making it clear I do not support WM any more then I support WoWI and Curse. I think all of you are doing what you think is best for your business. I do however think that you all have become selfish and forgot why you even have a business in the first place. You are here because at some point in your past you saw that the WoW community needed a single place they could look to get and update their addons. Now all of your fighting and disputing has hurt the very community you are here to serve.

Now all of you need to come up with a solution to the problem, because like it or not the community that supports your wallets will sooner or later start looking for a new solution to the same problem they have had in the past, which is why WM did so damn well. The players are sick of having to watch 2 or 3 websites to get updates for their addons. Not like you care, because if you did both WoWI and Curse would work together to make a client like WM that access BOTH sites not just one. Whats funny about that is I bet you would be shocked at how many people would pay a small premium fee for such a client.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 03:18 PM   #156
Cairenn
Credendo Vides
 
Cairenn's Avatar
Premium Member
WoWInterface Admin
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,098
You need to read up a bit more friend. Go check out the information about Minion.
__________________
“Do what you feel in your heart to be right — for you’ll be criticized anyway.” ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Co-Founder & Admin: MMOUI
FaceBook Profile, Page, Group
Avatar Image by RaffaeleMarinetti
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 03:40 PM   #157
djrajir
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
You need to read up a bit more friend. Go check out the information about Minion.
Ok I half take back what I said about you not caring, but modules are not gonna be a solution and you know it. There is no way curse will approve of a module because it would hurt their "premium service". I think its a great step forward, and I have always loved WoWI for many reasons like the effort you are making here, but its not gonna be enough.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 03:42 PM   #158
Cairenn
Credendo Vides
 
Cairenn's Avatar
Premium Member
WoWInterface Admin
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,098
It's possible they won't, but they won't be able to say it's because of advertising revenue or Premium/Non-Premium membership restrictions. Check point #7.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 03:47 PM   #159
djrajir
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
It's possible they won't, but they won't be able to say it's because of advertising revenue or Premium/Non-Premium membership restrictions. Check point #7.
Sorry i didn't read part b of #7.

Somehow I still dont see curse going along with this. I hope they do but we shall see.
  Reply With Quote
05-12-09, 03:48 PM   #160
Cairenn
Credendo Vides
 
Cairenn's Avatar
Premium Member
WoWInterface Admin
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,098
Aye, I know. But we are trying, and we can hope, right?
  Reply With Quote

WoWInterface » General Discussion » Chit-Chat » WowMatrix Responds!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off