WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 8

twobits · 03-21-09, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

Since those guidelines are placed in a policy, I would think that makes it to where they can legally enforce them. No?

I would have to say no. That is part of why I gave the FDA regulations vs. guidelines example. The FDA is much closer to a force of law then Blizzard is, and even their guidelines are not legally enforceable without the regulations.

Petrah · 03-21-09, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Tristanian

This is pretty controversial. It's a policy, it is not a part of the EULA/TOS and users are not required to agree to it, or sign anything, which brings us exactly to what most people have mentioned already. It would not be in Blizzard's best interest to attempt to enforce many of the 'guidelines' stated in the new policy. Most of it, is really a protective mechanism, a countermeasure to prevent things that they view as detrimental or harmful to the game, or generally their business model. As much as I may disagree with a lot of stuff on that policy, it is well within Blizzard's rights to invoke it, whenever they feel its necessary.

Thank you for the clarification

Samasnier · 03-21-09, 05:13 PM

Temper tantrums, discontinued addons, Cogwheel's macro guide erased...all over the inability to solicit donations in-game?

Wow.

Petrah · 03-21-09, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Samasnier

Temper tantrums, discontinued addons, Cogwheel's macro guide erased...all over the inability to solicit donations in-game?

Wow.

Well, yes. I myself didn't really understand the impact that the new policy has on those in game donation requests until I read this. Seeing real numbers definitely made a difference in my opinion about having in game donation links/buttons or whatnot.

Edit: I didn't and do not agree with the new policy. However, until I read that post I did agree with the donations in game thing to a degree.

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Samasnier

Temper tantrums, discontinued addons, Cogwheel's macro guide erased...all over the inability to solicit donations in-game?

Wow.

To be fair, it really goes beyond that. It's the principal of the rules that has people upset more than the rules themselves. Kind of hard to really explain in a meaningful way if you're not personally invested in it.

xtoq · 03-21-09, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Darkorical

What kind of morons do you think are downloading your mod that they would completely forget where to go to get your addon AND develop an allergy to Google that prevents them from searching to find it.

This made me laugh so hard I almost peed myself. I'm not saying everyone who downloads mods is a moron, I download a lot of them myself, but as a person who has helped users with mods before and as a user who has asked many stupid and obvious questions, I have to say that, yes, many users who download mods are morons, or at least can act like ones at any given moment.

It is my experience that many people have little to no idea of how to accurately search Google (or any search engine), leading to searches that have nothing to do with what the user is really looking for. Now the user is frustrated because they can't find the addon site, or, in a worst case scenario, gets scammed or downloads viruses. This is where sites like Curse and WoWI come in; they are a centralized, trustworthy location for addons authors and users to communicate and share code and ideas. Slightly off-topic, but anywho...on to your next point, WowMatrix.

Originally Posted by Darkorical

"Well there are updaters out there like wowmatrix and curse's updater and such so they never have to come to my site so they never donate from there."

Solutions to that issue.

1.) Stop offering your mod through there so they have to come to you.

Argument against solution #1: They will stop using mine and find one that is easier to update.

If they don't care enough about what mod they are using for that purpose were they really going to track you down to donate anyway? But you may be right so lets move to solution #2

Wowmatrix is notorious for not respecting the author's wishes to remove their product. Since the addon is available for free, there's not much legal recourse that the authors have. Since the addon available for free, anyone can get it and make it available for download. You see the problem here...

Also, Curse has the author's rewards program that they are launching (have launched?) that will reward authors that have a large user base. This ruling from Blizzard might actually be a boon for Curse and, by extension, some mod authors. (Although to me its a little like saying "anyone can be president;" sure its true in theory, but in application things get a little messy. But I digress.)

In conclusion, I believe that many people using computers and playing WoW probably shouldn't be, as they don't understand the basic mechanics of either well enough to actually be "users" rather than "used." I'm with those that say this is simply Blizzard's CYA policy coming into play again, with perhaps some vigorous pseudo-enforcement for a few months, then a general falling off.

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 05:39 PM

I lack the connections to do it, but I honestly believe that this is an issue that should be receiving media attention in much the same way as the attempt to change the Facebook ToS caused a media shock.

I don't say this as a threat to anyone, I say this because the steps Bliz is taking here have very deep, non-trivial, ramifications in the world of modding and addon development that extend way past just World of Warcraft into a huge arena that people have many millions of dollars invested in.

I just don't know who to contact or how, but this subject deserves a deeper and more transparent discussion than just the somewhat myopic tact it has taken to date in this thread.

Just my own $0.02

That all said... my position at this point is that I'm kind of done debating this. The people who think it is evil to profit from real work are not going to be convinced otherwise and I honestly believe that pretty much every significant point that can be made in this debate has been made, all the remains is rehashing and word smithing.

As for myself... my position is simple. I think Bliz is dead wrong on so many levels it almost defies logic. None-the-less, as has been pointed out, it's their sandbox. I do, however, think this to be a very dangerous area they've entered that may well have a world of consequences their illustrious legal staff have failed to consider... legally, economically and morally. I do think there's a backlash to come and I do think they will likely draw the attention of some very big and deep pocketed players in the modding world (can you say Adobe?) that they may not wish to tangle with.

In any event, from here forward, I'm going to stick to the letter of their law... I'm not going to ask for donations in-game. I'm just going to tell you where you can go to donate. Nor am I going to tell you where you can get the free download of the other version of my mod unless I happen to think you're a nice guy that I feel compelled to share my personal copy of nUI with because I like you.

I'll leave it to Bliz to (a) accept that, (b) sue me for it or (c) explain to quite a few thousand of their customers why the mod they use was banned for not asking for donations.

MadCow · 03-21-09, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by spiel2001

To be fair, it really goes beyond that. It's the principal of the rules that has people upset more than the rules themselves. Kind of hard to really explain in a meaningful way if you're not personally invested in it.

Its the principle of the rules that people are upset over huh.. wouldnt have anything to do with the $4k in 13 days at all.

I agree noone forces people to download and use mods where they are asked to donate or pay but noone forces mod authors to create and offer these mods to the public either.
Someone posted above that they spend 20-30 hours a week on their mod all for the good and enjoyment of the people.....as an excuse/reason why they ask for donation or charge for their mod. No one forces you to spend so much time/effort. the game will not crash and burn without your selfless efforts and I doubt the loss of it will effect many people for very long at all.
So if you feel the appreciation of the community isnt enough and you feel uncompensated for your time and effort then maybe you should stop as it has obviously become a burden to you.

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by MadCow

Its the principle of the rules that people are upset over huh.. wouldnt have anything to do with the $4k in 13 days at all.

/sigh

Of course the income matters. But there is an issue of principal in it whether you accept that or not and that's why people who are making no money from their mods are deleting them.

I still am waiting for someone to explain to me what is wrong with getting paid to write a mod.[/quote]

EDIT to expand on the principal topic.

Astrocanis · 03-21-09, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by MadCow

Its the principle of the rules that people are upset over huh.. wouldnt have anything to do with the $4k in 13 days at all.

I agree noone forces people to download and use mods where they are asked to donate or pay but noone forces mod authors to create and offer these mods to the public either.
Someone posted above that they spend 20-30 hours a week on their mod all for the good and enjoyment of the people.....as an excuse/reason why they ask for donation or charge for their mod. No one forces you to spend so much time/effort. the game will not crash and burn without your selfless efforts and I doubt the loss of it will effect many people for very long at all.
So if you feel the appreciation of the community isnt enough and you feel uncompensated for your time and effort then maybe you should stop as it has obviously become a burden to you.

So. You are encouraging mod authors to stop writing mods?

What you are saying as well is that despite the fact that a market obviously exists, and despite the fact that the mod author in question evidently created something that generated $4000 in non-mandatory-please-donate-activity the mod author should simply, for the good of ... hmmm ... Blizzard's ability to advertise in an exclusive relationship with microsoft wherein in-game ads will be presented ... stop trying to fulfill the market?

When was the last time you told someone that even if a market for his product exists, and that people will gladly DONATE to it if they know they can, that he should simply collapse his business model because you don't approve of it?

voodoodad · 03-21-09, 06:02 PM

I think that Blizz has secretly been planning in-game product placement... I can see it now... Crumpled diet pepsi cans littering the landscape... Empty Doritos bags thrown willy nilly all over Darnasus... Used Starbuck cups piled to the upper ramparts of Stormwind... And in the distance, a lonely Night Elf stands, a single tear dropping from his eye... My god, the humanity... the humanity...

MadCow · 03-21-09, 06:10 PM

Blizzard has every right to do this. Think of it this way.

If i go in to burgerking. buy a hamburger and fries sit then down at a table. Say i fool around with the food placing the fries underneath the bun squeeze some ketchup and mustard on it add a little of my own secret sauce then wrap it back up and proceed to try to sell it to other customers as they come in the door. Does that sound ok? I spent my time moding burgerkings food. Shouldnt i be able to resale it in their store as i see fit?

septor · 03-21-09, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by MadCow

Blizzard has every right to do this. Think of it this way.

If i go in to burgerking. buy a hamburger and fries sit then down at a table. Say i fool around with the food placing the fries underneath the bun squeeze some ketchup and mustard on it add a little of my own secret sauce then wrap it back up and proceed to try to sell it to other customers as they come in the door. Does that sound ok? I spent my time moding burgerkings food. Shouldnt i be able to resale it in their store as i see fit?

That actually only works if you were to resell an existing addon Blizzard wrote on their own. Like the Achievement frame.

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 06:18 PM

Two fallacies in your argument:

1) You are competing directly with BK by trying to get their customers to buy your burger in place of the one BK would sell them -- conversely, mods ENHANCE, the game experience for the player and that BENEFITS Bliz.

2) You are using BKs materials (copied their source code) which you have simply modified to suite your personal taste before trying to resell it -- Conversely, mod authors are offering to sell you an amazing sauce, made using their own recipe and their own ingredients, that makes the burger taste even better and to not contribute to your high cholesterol.

In neither case did you explain why is is wrong to get paid for modding.

Originally Posted by MadCow

Blizzard has every right to do this. Think of it this way.

If i go in to burgerking. buy a hamburger and fries sit then down at a table. Say i fool around with the food placing the fries underneath the bun squeeze some ketchup and mustard on it add a little of my own secret sauce then wrap it back up and proceed to try to sell it to other customers as they come in the door. Does that sound ok? I spent my time moding burgerkings food. Shouldnt i be able to resale it in their store as i see fit?

EVmaker · 03-21-09, 06:24 PM

Maybe its just me, but having played on battle.net with the starcrafts and warcrafts long before having played WoW, I know of the little 'banner' adds that are on the top of the battle.net interface, which the link thrown around a couple times mentions.

I don't know this insidetech site from the link, I don't know where they get their information or if they could have easily misreported it, with this said advertising going to be showing up on battle.net as I personally know it, since there isn't any logical way their sort of advertisements to show up in game, besides at the starting screen where current WoW information shows up before your fully in game, and possibly on the login screen areas themselves. As much as some people may believe it could happen, I simply don't see it, Blizzard isn't going to have nightelves walking around drinking from pepsi cans, they care too much about their game and all the lore thats been written to put stupid normal human advertising to ruin that/the immersion once the person is past the login screen. (And by stupid normal human advertising I am referring to such as commercials between a show, and blatantly bad 'product placement' like before said pepsi cans being in a fanstasy world like WoW, I am not referring to non-obtrusive donation buttons like I've seen in some mods which I personally don't mind)

So in short, I don't see how this 'advertising deal' if it does happen, has any impact of the recent issue, nor how it would show up in-game, and not in "battle.net" or on the loader screen.

Aerador · 03-21-09, 06:45 PM

Yeah the in-game advertising stuff I read on the WoW Forums from one of their EULA/TOS things (correct me if i'm wrong) was a bit disturbing too. I don't want to see billboards in Dalaran or posters in Thunder Bluff personally. That would just ruin the game for me. There is no RPing next to a Pizza Hut ad.

Back to the topic...

I agree that a lot of people installing mods are morons as well. Good people none-the-less but morons when it comes to installing addons and all that. I've been in a few large raiding guilds over the past 3-4 years and most of the time they have a post for instructions on their website on how to install an addon. I've had to walk MANY MANY people threw it myself over vent. These people have no intentions of going to the authors site to donate anything nor do they even know the author takes donations. The in-game advertising of donations does really help people see that this person (author) who made this addon is accepting donations.

A majority of players i've been with in guilds just use the curse profiler, ACE Updater (awhile back), Matrix, or any number of downloaders there are because they're ALOT easier so they never even see the authors site and alot of times never even see the download site it's coming from. And yes there are MANY downloaders out there. For the Mac alone I know of 4 off the top of my head but there was once a list on WowAce somewhere.

To you authors that are following Blizz's "guidelines" I always check the site for donations. I can't give much but there's nothing I hate more than to see a quality mod I really love to use go belly up.

AsheruWolf · 03-21-09, 07:52 PM

Scott send me a freebie ILL LOVE YOU LONG TIME...

Joke aside the real matter here is the fact this is really a protective mechanism to stop some people from exploiting others. Do I think nUI is one of these addons? No. Scott is just a programmer getting by doing coding for a helpful interface in a game we all play. I came from someone who was a heavy Nurfed UI user to dreading the loss of my UI till I found nUI and if I had a job in the last 9 months other than the periodic repairs of computers I would be on the list of people who would gladly send a donation to the UI's author. While some people dont agree with this I think that it should be up to each persons personal feelings as to if they want to spend more money than they are already paying per month to enjoy what in the end when all is said and done is a game.

Laslo · 03-21-09, 08:13 PM

I think the outcry over this is a bit over the top. Granted, I don't write add-ons, so I am not not emotionally invested, but I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Put donation links wherever you want, other than in game. Put buttons all over your add-on's page here on this site. If people want to donate, they will.

The problem Blizzard has, in my estimation, is that some of the authors are selling something. If the people who donate get something extra over the people that don't, in my eyes it goes from "donating," to "buying." True, maybe people will be less inclined to donate if they don't get something out of it, but that's the trouble with donations. Gotta live with it, unfortunately. Many people don't feel that keeping the add-on alive is enough of a reason to donate. That's the problem with something that's SUPPOSED to be non-profit. Which brings me to my next point.

I think another problem is that some people are making enough money to live off of just working on an add-on. I'm sorry, but that is insane, and apparently Blizzard feels the same way. The game is supposed to be fun, add-on developers are supposed to be coding in their spare time because they like it, not as a full-time job. Once you start making the kind of money that you can live off of, there should be tax implications and I'm sure none of you making significant amounts of money off of your spare time hobby are claiming "$4000 in 13 days" on your tax return. Many, many, MANY people don't make that kind of money at their real jobs and they are still taxed insane amounts.

Sure, it's not your fault your mod is so popular (and seriously congrats on making that kind of cash, I do think it's a testament to the quality of your add-on, although I've never used it myself), but still limits have to be set in some form because I'm sure there are legal ramifications for someone making this much money off of something that is supposed to be free. Blizzard has to be allowed to protect themselves from being involved in any kind of tax or income issue that may arise. Maybe, as others have said in other places, this is just a sign of things to come. Perhaps am official Blizzard add-on site?

I hate to say it, and I'm sure there's gonna be an uproar, but the line between selling add-ons and selling gold is really blurring. Everyone is very against gold selling, but all it is really doing is making your in-game life easier. How much of a difference is buying gold and having an add-on that tells you where to go every step of the way from level 1-80? It's just making your in-game life easier too.

Sepioth · 03-21-09, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by spiel2001

/sigh

I still am waiting for someone to explain to me what is wrong with getting paid to write a mod.

[/quote]

And nothing says you WON'T get paid .. Blizz NEVER said you could not make money off of your mods .. they just ask you don't advertise it in game with your mod .. THAT'S ALL.

Like I said before .. what's to say that you would not have made that $4000 if you DID NOT advertise donations in game??

You said it yourself .. not only did you add an in game ad for donations .. you also gave a REASON to donate .. an expanded version of your UI. That to me would seem to be the REAL reason for an increase in donations .. not some simple ad. It's fairly common sense here .. people don't generally donate .. if they can get something in return they tend to donate MORE. Where I work (a supermarket) they sell a type of scratch ticket to go torwards charity. You pay $1.00. In return you get a free item worth at LEAST $1.00. Well sell hundreds of thousands company wide, my store alone sold over 5,000 tickets, we have over 500 stores. We also sell paper turkeys for $1.00. All you get is to put your name on it and hang it on the wall ... as you can guess we don't sell as many of these.

People can get your mod from here or your website ... there is a link to donate on each and what you will receive if you do ... there is no reason to believe that you could not have made that same amount of money with or without that in game donation ad.

Xruptor · 03-21-09, 08:37 PM

I'm an addon author of many mods (ItemSync, ChatSync, etc...) Although these new policies don't affect me directly, I'm a little upset at how many people are overreacting (especially authors) throughout many addons sites and forums on the web.

Ultimately it's Blizzards Game, Blizzards Client, and Blizzards Servers. If you have an issue with them because your an author and they put new policies on their client then send them an email. Ask them why it's wrong and how your mod will be affected. It is their game after all and they maintain their updates and systems using revenue. Your programming something that uses their client and their api structure. They have every right to enforce these policies. Granted I'm not saying everything they do is sound or fair, but I think people are blowing this way out of proportions.

I completely respect people defending addons. In fact more power to them for being vocal about it (as long as it's in a constructive and polite manner). But it really is a moot point to flame forums in anger. Unless they change their policies no amount of flaming will accomplish anything. (Which is why I recommended sending emails to Blizzard) I think right now everyone is just fuming.

You can still ask for donations just not in game. Make a website and use donations to maintain a forum or something for support. There are lots of possibilities of creativity with the new policies. Just throwing up hands as an author and giving up accomplishes nothing. (But it's their right to do this which I respect)