Quantcast WowMatrix Responds! - Page 7 - WoWInterface
Thread Tools Display Modes
05-10-09, 04:25 PM   #121
Seerah
Fishing Trainer
 
Seerah's Avatar
WoWInterface Super Mod
Featured
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,557
Originally Posted by rdsully View Post
Somewhere it was said that bandwidth on curse went down by almost 30% and WoWI went down by almost 50%. That's a lot of bandwidth being used to generate ad revenue for WM, while using the resources of Curse/WoWI.
Fixed. (Ours went down by half.)
__________________
"You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Things Are As They Are." -Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

  Reply With Quote
05-10-09, 06:42 PM   #122
Torhal
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Torhal's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,196
Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
sure, but the extent of the edits weren't things like reworking an algorithm so much as fixing things like typos or adding missing arguments for api changes -- stuff that causes a mod to actually pop and error rather than simply not do what it's supposed to.
This is only partially correct. The version string in the TOC files were also edited to match the current WoW build, even if the AddOn hadn't been updated to use the more recent APIs. Also, Lua errors were turned off in Config.WTF so the end-user never knew that they were occurring. In essence, they were forcing AddOns which weren't actually updated for the current version to run in the current version and fail silently.
__________________
Whenever someone says "pls" because it's shorter than "please", I say "no" because it's shorter than "yes".

Author of NPCScan and many other AddOns.
  Reply With Quote
05-10-09, 07:51 PM   #123
Bluspacecow
Giver of walls of text :)
 
Bluspacecow's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 769
Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
In essence, they were forcing AddOns which weren't actually updated for the current version to run in the current version and fail silently.
Which is even worse from a support side of things.

Because even more time is spent diagnosing a bug for a user when an error they didn't see is causing part or all of their addon not to load. The user has no idea why they're addons isnt working correctly or loading as the error that would tell them why has been turned off. Without their knowledge.
__________________
tuba_man on Apple test labs : "I imagine a brushed-aluminum room with a floor made of keyboards, each one plugged into a different test box somewhere. Someone is tasked with tossing a box full of cats (all wearing turtlenecks) into this room. If none of the systems catch fire within 30 minutes, testing is complete. Someone else must remove the cats. All have iPods." (http://community.livejournal.com/tec...t/2018070.html)
  Reply With Quote
05-10-09, 09:54 PM   #124
rdsully
A Deviate Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
Fixed. (Ours went down by half.)
oops. In my head when I typed that, I had it right. My fingers just didn't cooperate
  Reply With Quote
05-10-09, 10:21 PM   #125
lilsparky
A Flamescale Wyrmkin
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Psychophan7 View Post
What's the quote? Something like "one mans typo is another mans code feature" or similar?

If I wrote an addon that calls function 'origen' and WM fixes that, then who is to say if they are correcting a typo or screwing my code? I might have written another addon that tries to call 'origen' from the other addon (can addons do that?) but WM went and fudged it by correcting my "typo" and turning it into 'origin'. Great, now theres compatibility issues between my own mods because WM dipped their dirty hands into my cookie jar. These are my cookies, dammit, so hands off! But my end users wouldn't know there's now an issue because WM went and messed with their WTF file to suppress the LUA errors.

But I'm not an addon author, so my cookie jar is safe... for now.
except that it didn't do things like that. it actually fixed real typos -- probably that were reported and fixed in later versions that wowmatrix doesn't host. the code is viewable on the wow forums.

edit: in regards to all the editing, i think it's sketchy, but i can sort of understand the rationale behind it -- wowmatrix was playing from behind the 8-ball. their options were then and are now quite limited. the turning off errors (and disabling addons like swatter) were particularly obnoxious and inexcusable. i'll just reiterate that i don't have some rosy idea of what wowmatrix was and is, just that i think what gets overlooked is that they did provide a useful tool and a lot of people were quite happy with it. if the addon community was truly a "community" and not a business, then i think a site like wowmatrix would have found a way to play nicely with others. but curse and wowi are not charities (and i'm not saying they should be). it is what it is.

Last edited by lilsparky : 05-11-09 at 01:04 AM.
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 08:26 AM   #126
Seerah
Fishing Trainer
 
Seerah's Avatar
WoWInterface Super Mod
Featured
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,557
Sketchy behind the scenes type things aside, no one has denied that their client was good at what it did, lilsparky.

Though I do still hold that WM had 1.5 years to try to play nice.
__________________
"You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Things Are As They Are." -Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh


Last edited by Seerah : 05-11-09 at 12:22 PM. Reason: me can no type before caffeine
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 11:58 AM   #127
Elhana
A Wyrmkin Dreamwalker
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 51
I never used WM and got no idea of what exactly they were changing in addon code, but from a typical user perspective I don't see them putting temporary fixes into the code as a bad idea. Sometimes I like the addon and want to play as soon as patch hits, login and see that it is broken - having some lua knowledge I would either fix error myself or if I can't figure out cause of it quickly i'd just supress/comment it out to allow mod to work to some degree.

Sometimes my guildies ask me to check if I can fix some addon they use since they like it and addon author is being lazy with a release even weeks after patch.

Now if WM does it for it's users I seriously see no harm in such actions, only benefits to it's end users (excepet that there shall be a warning about workaround implemented).

btw I'm living in a country where stupid US copyright law doesn't apply and it is actually allowed to reverse/disassemble soft to fix the bugs/resolve compatibility issues here, so what they did is even legal here (no idea where WM is hosted)
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 12:35 PM   #128
Vyper
A Rage Talon Dragon Guard
 
Vyper's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by Elhana View Post
I never used WM and got no idea of what exactly they were changing in addon code, but from a typical user perspective I don't see them putting temporary fixes into the code as a bad idea. Sometimes I like the addon and want to play as soon as patch hits, login and see that it is broken - having some lua knowledge I would either fix error myself or if I can't figure out cause of it quickly i'd just supress/comment it out to allow mod to work to some degree.

...

Now if WM does it for it's users I seriously see no harm in such actions, only benefits to it's end users (excepet that there shall be a warning about workaround implemented).
This kind of thing causes a major headache for the addon authors however, because WM doesn't fix bugs, it attempts to hide them. A true to life example, we spent several weeks tracking down a problem in QuestHelper, which turned out to only occur when the user installed it via WoWMatrix. Turns out, WoWMatrix was making a change to the code to suppress a known bug, which it did. The problem is it also ensured that pieces of QuestHelper didn't have a change of functioning correctly.

They also like to blindly update .toc files on versions of addons which have not been updated to work with a new WoW patch, and turn off lua errors in the WoW config, so the user just sees an addon not working. Thus the author is being flooded with reports of bad behavior which is actually being caused by an error which is being hidden from the user (Who is often running a out of date version without realizing it).

This kind of tinkering doesn't help the authors or the users.
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 12:37 PM   #129
bknab
An Aku'mai Servant
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by Elhana View Post
I never used WM and got no idea of what exactly they were changing in addon code, but from a typical user perspective I don't see them putting temporary fixes into the code as a bad idea.
I see your point, however they were not implementing fixes, they were merely preventing the end user from knowing anything was wrong in the first place.

I understand that you live in a country where US copyright law doesn't apply. If I try to place myself in your shoes, maybe I'd be okay with what they were doing, if and that's a big if, they were implementing actual bugfixes.

Let me ask you this though, how do you feel about privacy laws? WM even went so far as so edit users Config.wtf files. That should be a red flag right there. If you have WoW remember your account name it will be stored in that file. Since I have a battle.net account, my email address is actually stored in there. I personally find that unacceptable.

Originally Posted by Elhana View Post
Now if WM does it for it's users I seriously see no harm in such actions, only benefits to it's end users (excepet that there shall be a warning about workaround implemented).
Yes, you are right that would have been nice if they let users know they changed the code of an AddOn. Too bad they did no such thing.
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 03:23 PM   #130
lilsparky
A Flamescale Wyrmkin
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by bknab View Post
I see your point, however they were not implementing fixes, they were merely preventing the end user from knowing anything was wrong in the first place.
no, they were doing both. they really did fix things that were broken -- you can see the code yourself in the wow forums. typically related to transposed letters or other silly typos and changes to the blizzard api.

but yes, they also did some stuff make it look like things were running smoothly when they weren't.

and it would have helped if they'd mentioned something about it somewhere.
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 03:50 PM   #131
Psychophan7
A Chromatic Dragonspawn
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 153
Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
no, they were doing both. they really did fix things that were broken -- you can see the code yourself in the wow forums. typically related to transposed letters or other silly typos and changes to the blizzard api.
WoW Interface is a form of content delivery. They do not supply any fixes to the thousands of Addons that they host and deliver. Why? It's not an issue of manpower, it's because as a content delivery site, it's not their role to provide the fixes. That's what the authors are for, to fix their own stuff. WoWI doesn't stick their dirty hands into the cookie jar, they open the jar and present it to you and say 'take as many as you want.' WM on the other hand, doesn't wash after going to the bathroom, sticks both of their hands into the jar, fondles the cookies aggressively, and makes them crumble. It wasn't even their own jar of cookies that they were sticking their hands into, either!

In short: Content delivery platforms are not supposed to molest the cookies.
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 04:10 PM   #132
Elesarr
A Fallenroot Satyr
 
Elesarr's Avatar
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by Psychophan7 View Post
WoW Interface is a form of content delivery. They do not supply any fixes to the thousands of Addons that they host and deliver. Why? It's not an issue of manpower, it's because as a content delivery site, it's not their role to provide the fixes. That's what the authors are for, to fix their own stuff. WoWI doesn't stick their dirty hands into the cookie jar, they open the jar and present it to you and say 'take as many as you want.' WM on the other hand, doesn't wash after going to the bathroom, sticks both of their hands into the jar, fondles the cookies aggressively, and makes them crumble. It wasn't even their own jar of cookies that they were sticking their hands into, either!

In short: Content delivery platforms are not supposed to molest the cookies.
brilliant!

and your descriptive prose gave me quite the chuckle!

we hatessss nassty dirty cookiesss my presssscioussss!
__________________
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 05:03 PM   #133
Petrah
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Petrah's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,988
Originally Posted by Psychophan7 View Post
WoW Interface is a form of content delivery. They do not supply any fixes to the thousands of Addons that they host and deliver. Why? It's not an issue of manpower, it's because as a content delivery site, it's not their role to provide the fixes. That's what the authors are for, to fix their own stuff. WoWI doesn't stick their dirty hands into the cookie jar, they open the jar and present it to you and say 'take as many as you want.' WM on the other hand, doesn't wash after going to the bathroom, sticks both of their hands into the jar, fondles the cookies aggressively, and makes them crumble. It wasn't even their own jar of cookies that they were sticking their hands into, either!

In short: Content delivery platforms are not supposed to molest the cookies.
Excellent explanation!

It was also extremely funny lol
__________________
♪~ ( ) I My Sonos!
AddOn Authors: If your addon spams the chat box with "Addon v8.3.4.5.3 now loaded!", please add an option to disable it!
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 05:14 PM   #134
ravagernl
Proceritate Corporis
Premium Member
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,176
Originally Posted by Psychophan7 View Post
WoW Interface is a form of content delivery. They do not supply any fixes to the thousands of Addons that they host and deliver. Why? It's not an issue of manpower, it's because as a content delivery site, it's not their role to provide the fixes. That's what the authors are for, to fix their own stuff. WoWI doesn't stick their dirty hands into the cookie jar, they open the jar and present it to you and say 'take as many as you want.' WM on the other hand, doesn't wash after going to the bathroom, sticks both of their hands into the jar, fondles the cookies aggressively, and makes them crumble. It wasn't even their own jar of cookies that they were sticking their hands into, either!

In short: Content delivery platforms are not supposed to molest the cookies.
Haha. Epic post Comparing WoWI to cookies is just awesome.
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 06:19 PM   #135
Bluspacecow
Giver of walls of text :)
 
Bluspacecow's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 769
Originally Posted by lilsparky View Post
no, they were doing both. they really did fix things that were broken -- you can see the code yourself in the wow forums. typically related to transposed letters or other silly typos and changes to the blizzard api.
Sparky you keep saying that they correct typos and bugs n stuff.

Please provide a link or 2 as proof of this.

See all I can find is Arrowmaster's post about them altering TOC numbers and turning off Showing LUA errors.

Here's the links I've been able to find :

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...id=1&pageNo=13
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=22697
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...id=1&pageNo=15
__________________
tuba_man on Apple test labs : "I imagine a brushed-aluminum room with a floor made of keyboards, each one plugged into a different test box somewhere. Someone is tasked with tossing a box full of cats (all wearing turtlenecks) into this room. If none of the systems catch fire within 30 minutes, testing is complete. Someone else must remove the cats. All have iPods." (http://community.livejournal.com/tec...t/2018070.html)
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 06:33 PM   #136
Seerah
Fishing Trainer
 
Seerah's Avatar
WoWInterface Super Mod
Featured
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,557
Your third link has the code edit stuff. For example, if AlphaMap were installed, WM would find this bit of code
Code:
and ( Gatherer.Storage.HasDataOnZone(mapContinent, mapZone) ) ) then
and change this:
Code:
and ( setting(mainmap.enable) ) then
to this:
Code:
and ( setting(mainmap.enable) )
(taking out the then)

At least I think that's how it reads.



edit: Another example - BattlefieldCommander2:

change this:
Code:
if ( MouseIsOver(BFC_Map_Container, 45, -10, -5, 5) and not UIOptionsFrame:IsVisible()) then
to this:
Code:
if ( MouseIsOver(BFC_Map_Container, 45, -10, -5, 5)) then

But it's not their place to "fix" things in the addons. As has been stated, they have broken code when doing this. If the addon is abandoned and the license allows for someone else to pick it up, and the WM folks want to take care of it, then they should become a real maintainer of that addon. Do it "for realsies" and take care of the users. Working with the community, letting the users/community know that they are doing this and they are the new maintainer to go to with bugs, feature requests, etc.
__________________
"You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Things Are As They Are." -Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh


Last edited by Seerah : 05-11-09 at 06:39 PM.
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 06:54 PM   #137
MidgetMage55
Grinch!
 
MidgetMage55's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,498
Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
<snip> If the addon is abandoned and the license allows for someone else to pick it up, and the WM folks want to take care of it, then they should become a real maintainer of that addon. Do it "for realsies" and take care of the users. Working with the community, letting the users/community know that they are doing this and they are the new maintainer to go to with bugs, feature requests, etc.
But that would require effort. Hell that would require even a simple desire to actually be helpful. Its easier to claim things and rely on users not caring then it would to actually do something helpful.
__________________

I think Hong Kong Phooey was a ninja AND a pirate. That was just too much awesome. - Yhor
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 07:02 PM   #138
Bluspacecow
Giver of walls of text :)
 
Bluspacecow's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 769
Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
Your third link has the code edit stuff.
Oh dears. I need to L2Read then

Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
But it's not their place to "fix" things in the addons. As has been stated, they have broken code when doing this. If the addon is abandoned and the license allows for someone else to pick it up, and the WM folks want to take care of it, then they should become a real maintainer of that addon. Do it "for realsies" and take care of the users. Working with the community, letting the users/community know that they are doing this and they are the new maintainer to go to with bugs, feature requests, etc.
I totally agree with this. If they are going to "fix" code then they should do it for real. Be the maintainers of that addon etc etc etc.

I still think it's wrong for an addon updater program to alter work that they did not produce as they have no right to do so. If I'm using an addon updater program I expect it to do just that - update my addons. I do not expect it to turn off Showing lua errors or alter registery settings or alter TOC numbers or alter any other code.

Because then it's effectively creating an extra version of each addon it alters code for.

Seerah I hope you don't mind but I'm going to use your addon as an example (no offence intended babe )

Let's say for example WM decides to alter 1 line of code in TipTop version 4.2 (version number pulled out of my head BTW not real) .

Seerah then updates TipTop to version 4.3 that she publish to Curse , WoW interface etc etc etc.

You now have version 4.2 , version 4.2 Wow matrix edition , version 4.3 ....

Now can we see how complicated that makes support issues ? If wowmatrix isn't declaring in the addon that they have changed code and where it makes it much harder on the addon author to track down bugs.

Seerah would have to get a copy of wow matrix's edits and have to keep track of those changes on top of all the other support issues she has to deal with. Should she have to do this ? No !

If you're going to be a hosting site for addons be a hosting site for addons. Don't be all running around changing addon code behind addon author's backs - it's not your code to begin with so you have no right to change it.
__________________
tuba_man on Apple test labs : "I imagine a brushed-aluminum room with a floor made of keyboards, each one plugged into a different test box somewhere. Someone is tasked with tossing a box full of cats (all wearing turtlenecks) into this room. If none of the systems catch fire within 30 minutes, testing is complete. Someone else must remove the cats. All have iPods." (http://community.livejournal.com/tec...t/2018070.html)
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 08:23 PM   #139
Cairenn
Credendo Vides
 
Cairenn's Avatar
Premium Member
WoWInterface Admin
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,083
There are very specific reasons why we (WoWI) DO NOT TOUCH the files that authors upload. They aren't that hard to figure out.
__________________
“Do what you feel in your heart to be right — for you’ll be criticized anyway.” ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Co-Founder & Admin: MMOUI
FaceBook Profile, Page, Group
Avatar Image by RaffaeleMarinetti
  Reply With Quote
05-11-09, 08:55 PM   #140
Bluspacecow
Giver of walls of text :)
 
Bluspacecow's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 769
Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
There are very specific reasons why we (WoWI) DO NOT TOUCH the files that authors upload. They aren't that hard to figure out.
Let me guess...

1) It's wrong to alter someone else's work
2) International copyright law
3) Wanting to avoid a law suit from (2)
4) It would hack the authors off having to have extra support issues
5) Privacy laws
6) Being accused of putting possible key loggers in them
7) Having no idea how the addons work and not wanting to anyway
8) Mr says its wrong
__________________
tuba_man on Apple test labs : "I imagine a brushed-aluminum room with a floor made of keyboards, each one plugged into a different test box somewhere. Someone is tasked with tossing a box full of cats (all wearing turtlenecks) into this room. If none of the systems catch fire within 30 minutes, testing is complete. Someone else must remove the cats. All have iPods." (http://community.livejournal.com/tec...t/2018070.html)
  Reply With Quote

WoWInterface » General Discussion » Chit-Chat » WowMatrix Responds!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off