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12-16-13, 06:22 PM   #21
Tegerian
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Cool

To be quite honest, I do not see any reason for Scott to apologize to anyone for his decision. His emails were not invitations to donate to extremist groups, so if you do not want to donate then do not donate, that is as much of a reaction as is necessary. There is no valid reason for someone to attack a person simply because of their suggesting a potential candidate for charitable donations. This is especially true when the person in question has provided you with an invaluable tool, free of charge for years, while patiently responding to an assortment of criticism and requests relating to his product.

Additionally, the attitude of the WOW Interface Staff in their announcement of the NUI forums closing was akin to the mentality of indulgent parents who hold dogs and other victims of their spoiled childrenís torment responsible for eventually biting them. To make it perfectly clear, there is no societal or business rule that demands a person stand-by calmly, smiling like an idiot while people hurl abuse at them. Actions have consequences, and while the internet might provide you the anonymity to behave like a giant tool if you choose, it does not render you immune to all of the consequences.

Therefore, we should be talking about the behavior of the self-entitled cretins who feel it is acceptable to treat Scott as if he were an indentured servant that exists only for the furtherance of their enjoyment, instead of treating Scott like a pariah for simply standing up for himself.

As initially stated, I fail to see what Scott has to apologize for, and I would suggest that WOW Interface and the rest of the critics take a white-hot fireplace poker and shove their request for an apology up the furthest reaches of their lower orifices.


Steve
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12-16-13, 06:55 PM   #22
bruj0
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Originally Posted by Dridzt View Post

Some of us have been sharing addons we make for free just as long without asking for some kind of medal for it.
That is because it's a hobby inside another hobby and you don't monetize your hobbies lest they become jobs.
Surely you understand that some people may want to treat addon development as a job and that is their choice as its yours
to treat it as a hobby.
There is a lot of market for comercial addons:

http://www.zygorguides.com
http://manaview.com/tycoon/
http://www.manaview.com/booster/

Now the question is why some people can and others are not allowed to.
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12-16-13, 08:26 PM   #23
Seerah
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Zygor's, for example, charges for their guides. You may download their addon for free. In fact, if I recall correctly, the addon is just Tekkub's TourGuide.

/edit: and the bar addon that comes with the Razer Naga is also freely available and (if I recall correctly) is a modified version of Tuller's addon.
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12-16-13, 08:44 PM   #24
schnapsey
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Too much is said by both sides who supports Scott, or not, therefore i feel that i need not to add on my own opinion already. I have used nUi for as long as i have played wow. I did not unsubscribe from the newsletter even after i stopped playing wow because i appreciate what Scott has done for us and i feel like i still want to be part of that. And now that WOWi is shutting down Scott's page, i have no more reason to stay on this site and to show my disagreement with the admin's decision, i am requesting my WOWi account to be deleted completely. Thank you WOWi for providing the platform for users like me, i just couldn't stay on this site anymore for what the admin is doing to Scott. Please delete my account, thank you.
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12-16-13, 08:56 PM   #25
shockangel
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Very sad indeed

Having played WoW since it first came out in beta i find that the addons are what made it the game it it today end of story. Its not by calling each other names like a 5 grade school yard will fix anything but WE ALL know this is just fuel for the drama jet. I for one like many others stand by you and nUI i think without nUI i seriously would not still be playing wow with all the damn patches they made in the years that simply screwed up so many of the game play. I am a supporter of nUI its creator and any other creator of addons that make WoW simply the game it is today. Without them hundreds and thousand of peeps would probably have moved on to another game. Point blank its like the government it wont pay attention to a new product until it sees it sees its a threat.. then the gloves are off

I have been , am and always will remain an nUI supporter

P.S consider my account on wowi deleted have e a great day

Last edited by shockangel : 12-16-13 at 08:57 PM. Reason: forgot line
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12-16-13, 08:58 PM   #26
Namora
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why the grief?

I have read all the posts, and I think the main issue has been overlooked. Do we as a community stand up to rude and uncivil behavior, or do we turn a blind eye and abandon the victim of the abuse?
When I first received Scott's email inviting his newsletter subscribers to look into eco-geeks, I thought to myself, "more power to him." When you have something you care about, you want to share it with your friends, which in this case applies to the newsletter subscribers. Those that clicked the link to eco-geeks had two civil choices to chose from, donate to a cause they thought worthy or ignore it. All Scott asked was for you to go to the site and decide for yourself. He never demanded, cajoled, blackmailed, etc.. his friends to donate. He simply asked you to click the link and follow your heart. The fact that we are now at this crossroads is due to people taking the uncivil option of firing off hateful emails to Scott about his simple request.
Now put yourself in his shoes, not as a developer but as a human being. Are you going to smile cheerfully, ignore the insults and continue to be friends with these people that insulted you? No, and no one would expect you to. You would separate yourself from the hateful people and pull your "real friends" closer to you. This is all Scott said he was doing with his follow-up email. If you were not one of those haters that were put on his do not share list, you were to be added to the new, smaller list of friends. He did add an opportunity to enjoy the addon by donating to eco-geeks, so even the douches could redeem themselves, but for those of us that are civil and appreciative, all was still right in the world.
I thought this was done and over. Now Wow Interface is throwing their 2c in the ring punishing Scott for standing up for himself and choosing his friends a bit more carefully? All I can really say to that, (in a language even the haters will understand), WTF? NUI is still free, if you wasn't a douche. If the people that emailed Scott had written those mean things here on the forum, admin would have taken them down and banned the authors. But somehow it is ok to bully and demean a developer as long as it doesn't clutter up your website? I call foul.
Like others that have posted, I learned of Wow Interface through NUI, I can get my updates through emails from the author (like everyone else that signed up for the free newsletter) and never have to come back here. I do use this site for the convenience, and have found other addons here since. I do not condone the rudeness that has been shown to Scott and feel that it is important to stand by him in this.
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12-16-13, 10:46 PM   #27
bruj0
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Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
Zygor's, for example, charges for their guides. You may download their addon for free. In fact, if I recall correctly, the addon is just Tekkub's TourGuide.

/edit: and the bar addon that comes with the Razer Naga is also freely available and (if I recall correctly) is a modified version of Tuller's addon.
You are wrong about Zygor the addon is a custom one and you must pay to download it or update it.

## Notes: Free multi-purpose leveling guide viewer.|n|nDesigned for use with Zygor Guides, but supporting user-supplied guides as well.
## Author: Sinus Pi for Zygor Guides

Says free but theres no free download anywhere.
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12-16-13, 11:19 PM   #28
Sensisativa
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Hi all,

As others, I came across Nui well looking for a ui replacement many years back. Nui is the only reason I come to this site, curse supplies the majority of my addons.

When I first saw his "angry" letter I thought, good for him.

Scott has responded to email I have sent him, even when I was borderline rude. He fixed all misconceptions I had and I ended up making a larger donation then I was going to.

After reading the OP I will be deleting/making dormant my account here, the tone coming across that post was laced with venom.
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12-17-13, 03:14 AM   #29
Tegerian
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Originally Posted by Namora View Post
I have read all the posts, and I think the main issue has been overlooked. Do we as a community stand up to rude and uncivil behavior, or do we turn a blind eye and abandon the victim of the abuse?
When I first received Scott's email inviting his newsletter subscribers to look into eco-geeks, I thought to myself, "more power to him." When you have something you care about, you want to share it with your friends, which in this case applies to the newsletter subscribers. Those that clicked the link to eco-geeks had two civil choices to chose from, donate to a cause they thought worthy or ignore it. All Scott asked was for you to go to the site and decide for yourself. He never demanded, cajoled, blackmailed, etc.. his friends to donate. He simply asked you to click the link and follow your heart. The fact that we are now at this crossroads is due to people taking the uncivil option of firing off hateful emails to Scott about his simple request.
Now put yourself in his shoes, not as a developer but as a human being. Are you going to smile cheerfully, ignore the insults and continue to be friends with these people that insulted you? No, and no one would expect you to. You would separate yourself from the hateful people and pull your "real friends" closer to you. This is all Scott said he was doing with his follow-up email. If you were not one of those haters that were put on his do not share list, you were to be added to the new, smaller list of friends. He did add an opportunity to enjoy the addon by donating to eco-geeks, so even the douches could redeem themselves, but for those of us that are civil and appreciative, all was still right in the world.
I thought this was done and over. Now Wow Interface is throwing their 2c in the ring punishing Scott for standing up for himself and choosing his friends a bit more carefully? All I can really say to that, (in a language even the haters will understand), WTF? NUI is still free, if you wasn't a douche. If the people that emailed Scott had written those mean things here on the forum, admin would have taken them down and banned the authors. But somehow it is ok to bully and demean a developer as long as it doesn't clutter up your website? I call foul.
Like others that have posted, I learned of Wow Interface through NUI, I can get my updates through emails from the author (like everyone else that signed up for the free newsletter) and never have to come back here. I do use this site for the convenience, and have found other addons here since. I do not condone the rudeness that has been shown to Scott and feel that it is important to stand by him in this.
Well said, no one should have to acquiesce to the bullies of the world, if people didn't like the charity do not donate, easy as that. But people have that boost of courage via email and the web, in that they know they won't get punched in the mouth for their rude behavior, Scott simply punched them where they didn't expect. And it is about time it happened, it is time they realized that their behavior is not beyond consequences despite the enabling attitude of WOW Interface.

Steve
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12-17-13, 06:48 AM   #30
sankagee
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I've been playing wow for over 6 years, and I think there probably aren't many addons that I haven't tried out yet. I've used nUI+ for several years, and have mailed Scott multiple times, mostly with stupid questions. Never ever has he lost his patience, always answering immediately and just being helpful.

It's thanks to people like Scott, who put a lot of work in their addons, that WoWInterface has a meaning of life. WoWInterface produce an ok platform like so many others, nothing more. Useful, yes, but hardly innovating and helpful at the core which is playing WoW. If not for nUI, I wouldn't have known WoWInterface, and most certainly wouldn't have used it (I only used it for nui anways), as there are many much better platforms out there, like Curse.

If there is an author who asks for payments for his addon, which is against Blizzard policy, then each of the parties should be involved in the matter as such as their role is: Blizzard as the owner of WoW, the author who has his way of seeing things, and WoWInterface as the platform. As the platform meaning: be glad an addon author has chosen you and be glad it's thanks to that same author you get 600 000 extra visitors for your website where you don't have put any programming work in, so let the author and blizzard fight out the differences where you have absolutely no part in as you, as the website, do absolutely no work for Blizzard/WoW itself, and be quiet until they have worked out a solution. You let the authors do all the important work, let them get you visitors, and yet get paid for advertisement while blackmailing them to do whatever you want. Blizzard doesn't want addon authors to gain money on behalf of their game, yet you do exactly that: gain money on behalf of the authors. Once you remove all advertisement and run a free website, you have a right to speak.
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12-17-13, 11:27 AM   #31
Cairenn
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Okay, letís clear up a few misconceptions:
  • Spiel2001 has not been banned from the site.
  • He has not been suspended.
  • He has not been shut down, banished or muted.
  • He is still able to update existing files, upload new files, respond to posts and comments, start new threads.
  • nUI has not been removed from the site.
  • Usersí access to the files has not been removed.
The only thing that has happened is that his Featured Artist status has been removed. Nothing more. And even with that he still has a forum of his own, unlike any other non-Featured Artist on the site. As well as his custom groups, which still exist and that he still has complete control over just as has always been the case. And his supporter only version (nUI+) is still available to those who are members of that group, which again is still completely under his control.

As for the rest of it, I am talking to him directly.
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12-17-13, 11:47 AM   #32
nexy33
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Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
Zygor's, for example, charges for their guides. You may download their addon for free. In fact, if I recall correctly, the addon is just Tekkub's TourGuide.

/edit: and the bar addon that comes with the Razer Naga is also freely available and (if I recall correctly) is a modified version of Tuller's addon.
They Bought tekkubs tour guide to stop dugi using it for his guides pretty low trick at the time.
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12-17-13, 12:17 PM   #33
spiel2001
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Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
Okay, let’s clear up a few misconceptions:
  • Spiel2001 has not been banned from the site. <- true (so far)
  • He has not been suspended. <- sorta true -- I have not, my forums have, as was my status
  • He has not been shut down, banished or muted. <- sorta true... you removed my public response to your public lashing of me. I'd call that muted. The forums are all locked, I call that shut down. Modify any of the "nUI+ User Group" features.
  • He is still able to update existing files, upload new files, respond to posts and comments, start new threads. <- not true - the forums remain locked, except this one and all of the "nUI+ User Group" files remain locked to me
  • nUI has not been removed from the site. <- true (so far)
  • Users’ access to the files has not been removed. <- true
The only thing that has happened is that his Featured Artist status has been removed. <- not true. The forums remain locked, download areas for the premium nUI stuff remains locked
Nothing more. <- not true (see other notes)
And even with that he still has a forum of his own, unlike any other non-Featured Artist on the site. <- sorta true... I just can't post to it, nor can anyone else.
As well as his custom groups, which still exist and that he still has complete control over just as has always been the case. <- not true. I cannot control them, nor can they be accessed from the menus
And his supporter only version (nUI+) is still available to those who are members of that group, <- true
which again is still completely under his control. <- not true

As for the rest of it, I am talking to him directly. <- we are?
if you have sent me any private correspondence since the one you sent where you said we needed to talk, and to which I agreed to talk, and posted a public notice indicating my willingness to reconsider, all of which occurred before you closed all of my forums and removed my status without following through on your offer to talk. then I haven't seen it. We have talked about nothing. since you posted your public notice. It's still up. You closed my forums, they're still closed. You removed my status and its still removed. You removed my public response to your public notice, but left yours to me posted publicly. I don't see much talking going on here.

That all said, not withstanding the fact that you removed my post, I really don't see where there's anything left to talk about. The damage is done. I have no intention of apologizing for calling people out for bad behavior and standing up for myself against bullies and disrespectful people. Nor am I particularly interested in being forgiving.

So, there we are. I'll go my own way and we'll call it done.

And on that note, I'll log out and won't be back. Do with the nUI download areas, these forums and my login as you will.
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Last edited by spiel2001 : 12-17-13 at 12:23 PM.
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12-17-13, 12:44 PM   #34
lunarphoenix
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Letters from K Scott Piel

I was an avid user of nUI until a couple years ago when he tried something similar to this. He posted a donation minimum on his website and said that if he didnt reach is donation minimum he would no longer provide nUI to the community as he wanted to be able to do it full time and without minimum donations he couldnt. He did ultimately change his mind however, and that was good.

That being said, I fully support his stand on the environment and wish him nothing but the best concerning the land he is trying to save. However, once again, I am being yelled at because something he wanted to happen isnt going to because he counted on a gamer community to contribute enough money to save the day.

I have posted his letters here on this forum concerning this issue because there seems to be some confusion on what was actually said. My interpretation on reading both letters was that if I didn't give money to him or to his charity, OR know someone who had, I could no longer use his addon. Sorry to all those calling from him to be able to charge, but no MMO out there allows you to charge for your time on an addon. It is their intellectual property. I personally thank K Scott Piel and others like him for making the game that much better, but you cannot charge for it. You have never been able to charge for it. You are donating YOUR time, and as I have supported many addons with a donation myself, I welcome you to ask for donations for your time. But that is ALL you can do. Feel the way you will about the system, but if someone chaged a game you had built and charged money for it, you would feel the same way.

As far as the cyber bullying or whatever, I agree with you, kick their asses off the list of being able to get the addon, but for those that have supported you for years, getting that email was hurtful and a kick in the teeth.

Last edited by lunarphoenix : 12-17-13 at 12:59 PM. Reason: cyber bullying comment added
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12-17-13, 01:02 PM   #35
Cairenn
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Originally Posted by spiel2001 View Post
if you have sent me any private correspondence since the one you sent where you said we needed to talk, and to which I agreed to talk, and posted a public notice indicating my willingness to reconsider, all of which occurred before you closed all of my forums and removed my status without following through on your offer to talk. then I haven't seen it. We have talked about nothing. since you posted your public notice. It's still up. You closed my forums, they're still closed. You removed my status and its still removed. You removed my public response to your public notice, but left yours to me posted publicly. I don't see much talking going on here.

That all said, not withstanding the fact that you removed my post, I really don't see where there's anything left to talk about. The damage is done. I have no intention of apologizing for calling people out for bad behavior and standing up for myself against bullies and disrespectful people. Nor am I particularly interested in being forgiving.

So, there we are. I'll go my own way and we'll call it done.

And on that note, I'll log out and won't be back. Do with the nUI download areas, these forums and my login as you will.
What the hell are you talking about? I haven't removed any of your posts.

As for not talking to you, the email is incoming. I'm sorry it hasn't been quick enough.
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12-17-13, 01:30 PM   #36
Dridzt
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Well there's a great new career to have as a televangelist.

The proper mix of delusions of grandeur, self-martyrdom, a fanatical following and noble causes that just need a little bit of your money... are all there.

Blizzard's response was basically a politely worded brush off, same as they give petulant children at the forums.

As far as the newsletter business, when I signup to a newsletter I agree to receive news about x and y and a link to unsubscribe.
I am ecologically conscious, politically and socially active but I choose where to seek discourse and invest of myself.
I obviously wouldn't insult you for sending irrelevant and unsolicited crap to my email but it would go into the spam folder same as the Nigerian Prince that wants to inform me I just inherited a diamond mine if only I send him a couple hundred for the paperwork.

Last edited by Dridzt : 12-17-13 at 01:35 PM.
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12-17-13, 03:22 PM   #37
bruj0
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Originally Posted by lunarphoenix View Post
... Sorry to all those calling from him to be able to charge, but no MMO out there allows you to charge for your time on an addon. It is their intellectual property.
You dont have a clue what "intellectual property" means, its related to work created and guess who created 100% of the addon?

Using APIs does NOT constitute breach of intellectual property, go read about it in google before making yourself look like an ignorant person.

You are just another one that didnt write a single line of code in his live and expect to get everything for free and when it doesnt go his way, start screaming "greed".

And to the admin of this site, have you thought what will happen to the quality of addons when only the "amateurs" are writing them?
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12-17-13, 04:04 PM   #38
Haleth
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Originally Posted by bruj0 View Post
And to the admin of this site, have you thought what will happen to the quality of addons when only the "amateurs" are writing them?
Are you suggesting that free software can't be of high quality? You are insulting a lot of programmers out there, including many professional ones.
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12-17-13, 04:09 PM   #39
nikkadaem
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The way I read this banter going back and fourth there is really only one core issue:

Scott sent a request to his subscribers to donate to a cause that is apparently important to him. The trolls smelled bait and went after him for it. He fired back at the community, basically saying everything that the majority of the community feels; at least the folks that have been around since Vanilla or even earlier. Someone at WOWI got their feelings hurt by Scott's lashing. WOWI decided to throw fuel on the fire which then alerted even more trolls.

So that's it in a nutshell.

Here is the irony. Blizzard created a mount and pet that is currently being sold on their website. A portion of the sale goes to Toys for Tots. Really...how dare they! Sarcasm aside...what is the difference between that and Scott's mission. No outrage over Blizz's actions.

Scott has a platform from which he has decided to speak. His points are valid. Site's like this one make a pretty good living off of advertising and affiliate linking, well maybe not so much since the game's decline, but still. It's money made off of the free labor of the developers. Brilliant business model, by the way, but WOWI should be showing loyalty to the devs (ie Scott) in exchange for their contributions.

[WARNING: Political Reference Incoming] WOWI asking for a public apology from Scott is like President Obama asking for an apology from Fox News for being right about Obamacare.

This really has gotten to the point of being petty. No...I take that back...it's beyond that point.

You know what? I think WOWI should publicly apologize to Scott for causing the drama. As part of that apology just make the statement that you don't agree with his position, but that you support his right to express his views. Then site the specific TOS that have been violated and work with him on it; if he's even interested anymore.

I don't normally rant in forums, but there you go. Trolls...don't bother, because I really could care less
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12-17-13, 04:49 PM   #40
Dameon
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I just don't understand how anyone can say the things that were said to Scott and still look themselves in the mirror. This includes the actions taken by this site. Most of these whiners have never coded an addon let alone continue to provide updates and bug fixes. Don't you morons understand how much time these people spend so you can play more efficiently. This time means the have less time to play WoW! While you are playing they are coding!

At no time did I see anyone say nUI would only be available on a paying basis. Sure they are asking for donations but then so do 90% of the authors on this site. This can be seen by the obnoxious POPUP that comes up all the time.

I agree with another poster that described the status of WoW. Not only has the latest pack been a flop but the changes allow a lot of obnoxious, self righteous kids to take over the game. These children are part of the generation that expects not asks but expects everything to be given to them! 11 million players down to 7 million players. That is a huge drop and the slide continues.

Anyhow it is too bad with stance that this site has taken. Well, Curse is a much better site anyhow.
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