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WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 16 - WoWInterface
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03-22-09, 08:28 PM   #301
Sepioth
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Originally Posted by spiel2001 View Post
I'll go one further... obfuscation only motivates people to crack it just because it was obfuscated.
You're right .. I had a friend who was decrypting Carbonite ... he got pretty far into the decryption .. there where many many "layers" .. although I'm sure he could have completed it he stopped as it really was not worth it.

And the only reason he was doing it was because he was bored and wanted to see if he could do it.

He did get some readable code out of it though.
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03-22-09, 08:33 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
I'm sorry but that would never hold water in any court. It is very much possible to create an addon that is totally independent of WoW as a platform and can actually utilize any kind of lua platform. Admittedly, it wouldn't do much on its own but that is immaterial. You don't even have to agree to any EULA and you are totally unaffected by Blizzard's decrees. Hell, even IF you use the WoW API, since you are simply referencing it and not copying it (the code behind the functions, methods etc), you are creating something that it is very much YOUR intellectual property. Likewise, if you aren't (re)distributing or modifying any sort of Blizzard game files, including but not limited to art files, binaries, libraries etc, then I personally cannot see how your addon can be considered as "derivative work".

While I'm not a lawyer, I would be very interested to see someone (Blizzard or anyone else) trying to dispute author copyright of their own work, in regards to addon code.
I would tend to agree it won't hold water in court. However, if you write an AddOn to perform a function that supports or even uses WoW in any way, I believe that's what they are considering to be a derivative work. For instance, if you write a stand-alone AddOn that let's just say is a bag mod or something. If the bag mod provides a function a user would use while playing/running WoW, irrespective of code or using the interface, the functionality itself is a derivative of the game. Thus, I think even a stand-alone AddOn could be considered a derivative (if you follow their apparent logic anyway). In other words, if your AddOn doesn't do anything if the user isn't running WoW, it's probably not a derivative. If however it provides WoW options or WoW functions, whether or not it uses code or the game itself, it's a "derivative". If that makes sense.

I don't know. I'm sure not trying to think for Blizzard. For the sake of discussion though, I'm just suggesting options. I really don't understand why they'd make these policy changes at this time. Maybe the timing isn't anything important in and of itself, or maybe it's related to events happening in the community (carbonite, etc.). I don't know. It just seems like Blizzard's priorities aren't correct (once again).
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03-22-09, 08:41 PM   #303
Kaydeethree
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Just a heads-up, since Cairenn did just say it on IRC.

We all know it was Legal (and I say that with as much scorn in my virtual voice as I can) who wrote this and posted it late Friday night.

How many people have been at the office since?

Let's get started setting up a drinking game now so we can decide how to score Legal's reaction later this week.
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03-22-09, 09:17 PM   #304
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Not precisely what I said, kd3.

The point I was making, though, is that it was posted late on Friday. People may be getting their knickers in a knot for no real reason, since we haven't yet had any real discourse with Blizz yet on all of this. I'm waiting to see what all they have to say about it all.
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03-22-09, 09:24 PM   #305
spiel2001
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Damn... and I already had a shot glass and a full bottle.

/kicks_cat

(got a smilie for that?)
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03-22-09, 09:52 PM   #306
Petrah
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Originally Posted by Haavok View Post
No he didn't. He either 'decypted' it fully and got the obfuscated code or he gave up with another encrypted string. It sounds heroic though...he's clearly fighting for the good guys. Those Carbonite guys are clearly money grubbing bastards. Anyone else that wants to make money from addons is cool but those Carbonite guys are evil.
I disagree. Carbonite is an amazing addon and I enjoy using it. While I do agree that putting the pay version out there with ads is stepping over the line (and I honestly felt it was a slap in the face to those of us who paid for it), I'll not call them names or say they are evil. They made a pretty damn big mistake, I'll not argue that... but lets not call anyone money hungry simply because they wish to make a living at something they enjoy doing.
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03-22-09, 10:33 PM   #307
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Well we all know time is money. I believe that if an mod of an add-on wants to charge or request donations that should be their right. No where does it say that you have to download said persons add-on. But if you pay for an add-on and blizzard brakes it's functionality well that is how the cookie crumbles.

I would quit wow in protest over this, but I will be honest right now it is part of a treatment for me with some problems I have been having lately... don't laugh it is true... so instead I have donated what little I could to who I could. It wasn't much... but it was all that I had right now.

Most mod authors like for example Nui... have a one time pop up that says please donate.... once... that is it... see before all this went down I used wowmatrix because someone told me how good it was. I did not know what it did. Know that I know I have told everyone that I know about it and I have removed it from my system and will not ever touch it again. I apologize for ever touching it.

Thanks to Wowmatrix I never went to the sites and saw download buttons. And I remember the big blow up with Mazzle... but it was with mazzle that i realized... hell if they want to charge let them... i have the choice to either use their mod or not.... but I damn sure know that I am not half as smart as them when it comes to this cause I could barely make qbasic flash twinkle twinkle back in high school.

Now foreign languages I rock at those.... computer languages... yeah you might as well ask me to figure out a complex astronomical physics equations.
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03-22-09, 10:45 PM   #308
HonorGoG
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Wink Wait a minute...

You mean people will not be able to use QuestHelper anymore? So, umm, that means people will actually have to think for themselves and not rely on an addon to tell them where to go and what to do?

"OH NOEZ!"

Sorry. I couldn't resist even though I should have. Yes, I had an extended conversation regarding this "turn off the brain"-mode with a guildie who uses QH and was over for a D&D game this weekend. I wish I knew about this Blizzard change before today. That's what I get when I try to do things in real life instead of staying in the WorldOfChatcraft. Damn my "get a life" pledge!

But my "BlizzardEmployee" was over visiting today and asked me if Titan has a donation request within it. It doesn't but then I asked him, "Why?". That's why I'm here now. WoW. Just WoW.

Last edited by HonorGoG : 03-22-09 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Typo!
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03-22-09, 11:01 PM   #309
Ratheri
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You know, I think that a good way to look at this is to step away from the computer and look at Tabletop gaming, specifically Dungeons & Dragons.

Back in 2000 or so, Wizards of the Coast (aka WotC) Put out the third edition rules of D&D. They also did something unheard of at the time, and that was put out both the Open Gaming License (OGL) and the d20 License. This opened up the market for third party D&D books. White-Wolf, Mongoose, Necromancer, AEG, and Green Ronin all got into the D&D buisness. Everything was relatively hunky-dory until somebody decided to make a D&D book about sex.

The "Book of Erotic Fantasy" was a d20 Licensed product, until somebody at WotC (which is a subsidiary of Hasbro) decided it was inappropriate for the D&D brand (Kind of ironic, because they had just released their "Book of Vile Darkness", which was much worse IMHO). So the book had to be reworked, taking into account the more restrictive OGL (Not allowed to make reference to certain monsters "Original" to D&D like the Illithid, etc.) The book finally did get published, but didn't sell as well due to not being an "Official" D&D product and therefore not having the logo on the cover. I'm sure someone at WotC would have liked to squash the book altogether, but the rewrite followed the terms of the OGL to the letter and therefore allowed it to still be released.

To make this relevant to the current discussion, the Blizz API is like the d20 system: It's the core framework of the product you are making. Like D&D, you can write whatever adventures, make whatever monsters, etc. that you want (Read "Write Code") But if you want to share that product (and your code is a product) with the general public, you have to abide by the OGL or d20 License (read "Blizzard Addon Policy") or find a new game system (read: "A different game's API") To release it under.

Incedentally, the thing that made WotC pull their d20 License on that book? Not the sexual situations covered by the book that they allready knew about and approved the license for. What made them change their mind was the fact that the book used real photoshopped photographs for the artwork. And frankly, having seen the book, the only photo in there I found even remotely offensive was the Goblin Fertility goddess. Ewwwwww.
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03-22-09, 11:15 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Kimmik View Post
Most mod authors like for example Nui... have a one time pop up that says please donate.... once... that is it... see before all this went down I used wowmatrix because someone told me how good it was. I did not know what it did. Know that I know I have told everyone that I know about it and I have removed it from my system and will not ever touch it again. I apologize for ever touching it.
Hardly most authors, the majority do not ask for donations in-game period, there is a few (maybe, 4-8) who have donation requests in game, and those are all hidden under configuration menus. QuestHelper is the only one I know of that displays something in chat asking for donations, and nUI is the only one I know of that does a pop up.
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03-22-09, 11:24 PM   #311
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I can pop up at any time. You never know when it'll happen, but damnit you'll know when it doe.
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03-22-09, 11:56 PM   #312
Kimmik
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Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
I can pop up at any time. You never know when it'll happen, but damnit you'll know when it doe.
Do you need a hug *huggles*

Shadow I know some of the addons I have used over the years have... I think... Many or few... what is wrong with a one time pop up... would it be better if it was a one time setup menu.. like mazzle had? * I miss my mazzlegasmim*

See the sucky thing is I can see both sides... and it sucks. I see the mods side and blizzes side... and I dont want to see blizz's cause the mods make this game playable for me.
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03-23-09, 12:00 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Kimmik View Post
and I dont want to see blizz's cause the mods make this game playable for me.
The moment they block addons they'll lose the majority of their raiding playerbase. Maybe that's a tiny percent like they claim, maybe it isn't. Who knows.

I *think* they're smart enough not to go to that extreme.
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03-23-09, 12:12 AM   #314
MadCow
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Blizzard should just add the most reasonable of the most popular mods to the default ui and be done with it.
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03-23-09, 12:16 AM   #315
Kimmik
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Ok I am going to ask a question and please I really mean no offense to ANYONE by it....

Is it just me.... or are there really a lot of folks out there that seem to be going hahaha you have to give me stuff free now... haha???
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03-23-09, 12:21 AM   #316
Shefki
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Originally Posted by Kimmik View Post
Is it just me.... or are there really a lot of folks out there that seem to be going hahaha you have to give me stuff free now... haha???
Of course there are... They're called trolls. These same people show up when a class gets nerfed and start saying how happy they are that Blizzard is doing this.
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03-23-09, 12:22 AM   #317
sweede
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Originally Posted by Republic View Post
That's incorrect. Blizzard sees Addon work as derivatives of the game itself. Thus, anything making use of any part of the game is legally a derivative unless it contains enough content on its own to be a stand-alone product (something that doesn't rely upon the game). That's the ONLY way any AddOn has a chance to stand on its own copyrightable grounds. It must show itself as a product that does not incorporate any previously published work(s) (like making use of the game, etc.).

In a nutshell, Blizzard is saying AddOn authors exist because of the game. This makes all AddOns derivative works, something which is now expressly prhobited from being a commercial product. Frankly, I agree with the fact that without the game, none of this exists out here. There are no Addons, no AddOn authors. Blizzard wants all revenue from their game as its a commercial product. This is not a new thing for software publishers and it certainly isn't unique to Blizzard or WoW.

I understand both sides of the argument but you cannot blame them for making these policy changes. The guys of Carbonite and similar AddOns simply don't exist without Blizzard. I'm pretty certain Carbonite hasn't been paying royalty fees to Blizzard. Thus, we have this set of very limiting rules. I don't know of an AddOn that exists which can't legally be claimed as a derivative work, regardless of the respective author(s) work(s). AddOns don't exist without WoW. Period. Legally, everything in the community can be seen as a derivative now.
Blizzard is a very smart company despite all of the crap people spew about them. As software developers themselves (ya I'm mr captain obvious here), they know the very intricacies about software copyright and licensing.

I posted this some where else, might have been in this thread i forget.

Derivative work is, for example, when you take an original piece of artwork and modify the artwork by drawing a horse on it. The derivative work is now your own artwork and not subject to royalties or copyright of the original artwork, providing there is significant change in the new artwork. In the software world it is similar to what Debian did with Firefox when they took the source code and modified it fixing bugs and making it "Debian" compatible, and released it as their own product (called Iceweasel, based off of Firefox).

Application Addons or plugins that utilize another applications API are NOT derivative work no matter how hard Richard S. tries to make it (read his arguments on how it should be Linux/GNU and not just Linux and the whole reasoning behind him creating GPL v3). Because they are NOT derivative work and they are NOT straight copies, they are bound to whatever copyright law and license the application author(s)[of the addon/plugin] create.
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03-23-09, 12:38 AM   #318
sweede
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Oh, and you have to stop putting this idea that you cannot create Add-Ons that you cannot sell. Blizzard is not preventing you from doing that, they cannot tell you how to release your source code that is a plugin or add-on to an existing application. Copy right law forbids it and protects the author.

HOWEVER Blizzard can say "Sure you can write it you can sell it but you can't use it on my application". This is perfectly Legal and copyright law supports this in that if you try to get around their "ban", they will have legal recourse against the Add-On author.
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03-23-09, 01:12 AM   #319
MadCow
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Originally Posted by Kimmik View Post
Ok I am going to ask a question and please I really mean no offense to ANYONE by it....

Is it just me.... or are there really a lot of folks out there that seem to be going hahaha you have to give me stuff free now... haha???
No one HAS to give their mods for free, they just cant charge for it or ask for donations in game. We assume anyway.. lol Blizzard could do a 180 Monday morning and all this will be moot. Hopefully they will answer some question about all this.
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03-23-09, 03:37 AM   #320
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I see the addition of these guidelines to be a sort of legal protection for all parties involved. The way I look at it is like this...

Blizzard has been known to "adopt" add-on and incorporate them into their own UI, regardless of how bad a job they do at it. (Is there anyone out there that remembers that WoW shipped with one action bar, no combat text,no quest tracker, and no raid frames? :P )

For arguments sake, let's say that Blizzard decided to implement their own version of an add-on similar to carbonite. What would happen to carbonite? There would more than likely be grounds for law-suits against and on-behalf of the makers of Carbonite and Blizzard. The same could be said if Blizzard had decided to no longer allow Carbonite's functionality.

I also wanted to throw out there that it has been a long standing policy of blizzard that they do not allow people to charge for additions to their games. Although, the terms were more focused on map authors for Warcraft and Starcraft. The policy has just been re-worded to fit within WoW's framework.
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