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06-05-09, 09:55 AM   #1
Ackis
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Addon Author Practices

Trying to get some discussion going regarding addon author practises, their "morals" and what they do. Not interested in flames (I know you'll do it regardless :P).

Anyways, a recent popular addon, DBM has put a big, blatant gold seller add on their web-page. Now gold-selling by itself, I feel is meh. IMO if me as a player farms gold and wants to sell it, all the power to me. The issue comes in when companies get involved and use unscrupulous practises such as account stealing, hacking, exploiting, etc to get that gold. That's where it starts to hurt the users.

http://www.postimage.org/aV1hbbQJ-d1...0a99274166.jpg

Now we all know that the major release sites have had gold selling ads now and then. This is 99% on accident and they remove them ASAP. However with this one project, it was done on purpose:

Well, we have very pragmatic reasons for this new ad: they generate more revenue* than other ads. We previously had these "buy fancy gold guide and get rich with the AH" banners, the new banner is up since Friday. It will stay for at least one month to see how it performs compared to other banners.
http://deadlybossmods.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1487

We are a community, and we stand up for each other. Author rights mean nothing to them. WoWMatrix and how Curse and WoWI responded to them are just a big "QQ".

I considered writing a longer post about the "WoWMatrix issue" but I decided that it's simply not worth the effort.

Updating DBM with WoWMatrix still works fine as it downloads it directly from here and not from Curse or WoWInterface. It will always update DBM to the latest stable version nd never to the alpha build so if you want to use it in Ulduar you might want to consider to update it manually.

About 60% of all downloads from this site come from WoWMatrix users (about 400.000 of 660.000 downloads since the patch day) but this is perfectly fine, I don't consider it "stealing bandwidth" as Curse and WoWInterface do.

The whole post on Curse that I linked is basically a big "QQ we need more monies!!11" thing. But I must admit that Curse's stance to this is understandable as they are a company and they need to make money from something...if they also have 60% WoWMatrix users (I don't think that the rate is that high on curse overall, I'd guess 30-40%)...well, that still sucks.
http://deadlybossmods.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1371

Plus the whole issue of how DBM got it's code/timers originally.

So TLDR: What do you feel about these issues? I know DBM has been singled out for examples in this post, because it has recently happened.

Update:
Apology by DBM issued:
The banner in question will be removed by June 15th (not earlier because it is already paid for until that date...(details are mentioned earlier, please read the whole thread before posting a flame Razz)).

I want to apologize for this banner, the advertised site is clearly against the ToS of the game and it was a bad idea to have such an ad on a quite big site like this one. It was never our intention to upset or annoy any of our users, we were just trying to get a little money (exactly $180) out of a project in which we invested thousands of hours of work. But we apparently chose the the wrong approach here Razz
But we are not doing it for the money in the end (well, developing free and open source software like DBM would be a very poorly paid job if you see it as a job and not as a hobby...), we just want to enhance your and our gaming experience in a great game we all love so much.
http://deadlybossmods.com/forum/view...hp?p=4264#4264

Last edited by Ackis : 06-08-09 at 01:22 PM.
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06-05-09, 09:57 AM   #2
Ackis
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06-05-09, 09:58 AM   #3
Slakah
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I'm already boycotting them (not that I used DBM in the first place :P).
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06-05-09, 10:48 AM   #4
Dridzt
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1. I don't agree with supporting gold-selling websites.
Providing ad-space to them is support.
2. I express my disagreement by not visiting the offending site.
3. Until such time as their addon violates Blizzard's addon policy in-game or out
OR they violate the rules of the addon hosting sites #2 is also the full extent of action I'm prepared to take.
4. I find this topic as well as the multitude of similar ones started on wowace/wow forums/curse etc useless and more or less just flame-bait.
(5. I'm not a DBM user myself, I use the other "major" bossmod addon).

If the purpose of all these threads is to inform then /shrug.

If the purpose is to instigate some kind of response from the addon hosting sites it's a slippery road and nothing but a witch-hunt imo.
(DBM's author practice is one I don't particularly like but he/they are not breaking any rules at this point)
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06-05-09, 10:52 AM   #5
Venificus
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I think these things tend to get blown out of all proportion.

Calling the display of gold seller ads a "moral" issue is like prosecuting someone for attempted murder for shooting someone with a squirtgun. It's just ridiculous. There are so many real moral problems out there that to even put this on the same level is absurd.

And the whole point about WoWMatrix was that it should be the author's choice, right? If an author chooses not to allow WM to host their addon, so be it. That's the right we were all supporting, right?

Well, then if an author does in fact grant WM permission to host their addon, that's their right too and nobody should be criticizing them for it.

By all means, if you think you're entitled to some say in which ads an author displays on his private website or who he chooses to allow distribution deals with, then you can exercise the only right you have as an end user of a free product and stop using it -- but it seems crazy to me.
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06-05-09, 11:06 AM   #6
acapela
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leaving aside the ethics of gold farming/gold selling, what bugs me the most about banner advertising of any kind (generally sourced, as content, from some third party) is that it can, and often does, contain malware... and the site serving it to the user then becomes a facilitator of that malware. even Blizzard was selling banner space for a while, which was (IMO, as far as i can tell) responsible for a number of things being delivered to my system that i would have preferred to keep out, and/or stuff that crashed IE reliably, etc.

hence, i block all adds using a captive proxy server, and i tend to browse a site with something like Opera or Firefox first (i.e. a browser that does not have a lot of fancy, microsoft-proprietary active control capability), and if the site seems too "flashy", operates as a platform for a lot of advertising, i steer clear of it.

in general, i think the temptation to turn a popular "community" site into a revenue stream needs to be balanced against the safety of the community. and policing the providers of your advertising content can be a full-time job. which is worse, destitution or unwitting redistribution of malware? i don't know.
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06-05-09, 11:27 AM   #7
Seerah
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The way I see it is that buying (and selling) gold is against WoW's TOS/EULA. Endorsing gold-selling and encouraging people to buy gold is endorsing them to break their contractual agreements and possibly get banned from the game. Not to mention the security threats, moral issues, etc.
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06-05-09, 01:01 PM   #8
Petrah
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Thank you for sharing this information, Ackis. Thankfully I use BigWigs.

Personally, I don't feel it's right for them to knowingly do this, much less on purpose.
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06-05-09, 01:46 PM   #9
Fatbeard
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Interesting thread. I wasn't aware of the goings on with DBM. I might need to switch Boss Mods.
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06-05-09, 02:33 PM   #10
Tristanian
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Though I have already expressed my point on view on this "issue" on the WoWAce forums, I would like to take this time to clarify a few things.

First of all, I'm not in any way a fan of DBM, not because I have something personal with its authors or anything, but just because I happened be stumble upon Bigwigs first and got stuck with it ever since.

Now that we got that out of the way, let's move on. No matter if someone agrees or disagrees with a certain point of view or practice, in this particular case the stance of the DBM authors versus WoWMatrix and gold selling, it is a simple fact that it is well within their rights to express their opinions on their own website, plus manage that website in whatever way they see fit. I do agree that endorsing gold-selling directly or indirectly is both unethical and even illegal if it results in breaking the enduser contract with Blizzard, in regards to World of Warcraft and therefore it is rightfully criticized. Addon authors should really know better than that. However, you could also say that I'm "launching a preemptive strike", so that this thread remains civil and on topic, without turning into a witch hunt, considering its somewhat "flammable" material.

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06-06-09, 06:06 AM   #11
us2006027321
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@ the OP: I was a DBM user, and I appreciate you sharing this with the community. I'm going to go over here and look at Bigwigs now... —>

Insofar as the raw logic of the issue is concerned, we can expect that any time money is involved in a situation, if someone is focused on making money, they are focused most of the time on doing it to the d*mnation of any impact to their posterity. I don't think this situation is any different.

Insofar as morality is concerned, I think it highly unethical of them to support corporate gold farmers, and as I prefer being as ethical as possible, they have lost my support.

Anti-flame nannars are anti-flame. ^^
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06-06-09, 07:10 AM   #12
Bluspacecow
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Me personally I've tried to bite my tongue on this in case I slip up and make a personal attack on the dev team at DBM.

I don't like the attitude of the DBM site admins towards the Wow matrix issue. Their response wouldn't look that much different the responses from the best and worse of the one hit wonder , just registered to share my view, wow matrix supporters.

But. In saying that.

That has no relevance to the gold seller ads issue. It is after all their website. At the end of the day what ever actions they take on their website is up to them. They have the right to do that.

Meanwhile they do assure us that they will watch out for any naughty keylogger type gold seller ads , that the ads come from Google and that they will be gone by June 15th.
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06-06-09, 08:25 AM   #13
Zaydok
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It is their right to display the ad, this I agree, but it is also our right to react to it. I've been using BigWigs for over a year now, but if I was still using DBM I would be switching at this point. I understand that as an add on developer it can be hard to get a buck, but supporting gold sites is a big turn off to me. To make things worse C4PGold, the site they have the ad displayed for, is one of the biggest spammers on the wow realms currently.

I think that add on authors, especially the ones behind the more well known addons, should be setting a good example for the community.
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06-06-09, 11:50 AM   #14
Maul
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I would say that as an author, and considering the new policy and new mechanisms to block addons from loading, one would be wise not to do something that would draw negative attention from Blizzard. At the very least, Blizzard can block your addons from loading. At the very most, include you in some tortious interference of contract lawsuit. Doubtful, but possible, since sites who allow such ads propagate the activity of users breaking their contractual agreement they make with Blizzard by buying the gold though the ad link.

And if Blizzard ever enters into a lawsuit against a company and they get hold of the records of which ad clicks lead to which gold sale, that is not good for the site. This last part is extreme and unlikely, but why open yourself up to Blizzard's possible ire?

I could also see the addon sites like WoWI or Curse removing addons that have websites that support activities that violate the EULA or ToU.

/2 cents
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06-06-09, 01:16 PM   #15
Tearstar
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Originally Posted by Venificus View Post
I think these things tend to get blown out of all proportion.

Calling the display of gold seller ads a "moral" issue is like prosecuting someone for attempted murder for shooting someone with a squirtgun. It's just ridiculous. There are so many real moral problems out there that to even put this on the same level is absurd.

And the whole point about WoWMatrix was that it should be the author's choice, right? If an author chooses not to allow WM to host their addon, so be it. That's the right we were all supporting, right?

Well, then if an author does in fact grant WM permission to host their addon, that's their right too and nobody should be criticizing them for it.

By all means, if you think you're entitled to some say in which ads an author displays on his private website or who he chooses to allow distribution deals with, then you can exercise the only right you have as an end user of a free product and stop using it -- but it seems crazy to me.
This has got to be the most intelligent post I have seen reguarding this whole issue . . . you are now my Elite-WorldBoss!

I agree 100% and I'm a user, and author. I host Mini-Targ on WowInterface, and WowMatrix but I don't care who uses what ads, who asks for what money for what, I can always find what I want "free" and without malicious code.
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06-06-09, 04:40 PM   #16
Petrah
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Originally Posted by Venificus View Post

By all means, if you think you're entitled to some say in which ads an author displays on his private website or who he chooses to allow distribution deals with, then you can exercise the only right you have as an end user of a free product and stop using it -- but it seems crazy to me.

No one here, I'm sure, feels that they are "entitled" to have a say in what ads a site owner uses. However, what we are entitled to is the right to gather together and discuss how we feel about it... and that is exactly what we are all doing.
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06-06-09, 04:44 PM   #17
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I'll just repost what I posted in the same thread on WoWAce:

If you believe that because you dislike the fact that the authors of DBM express support for gold selling and WoWMatrix on their own website, there exists grounds for removing DBM from public addon hosts like WoWInterface and Curse, it would logically follow that you would argue in favor of deleting all addons whose authors supported something on their own website that you felt was "bad", even if no mention of that thing was to be found anywhere in the addon itself or on its WoWI/Curse download pages.

While gold selling and WoWMatrix are things a lot of us as WoW players and addon authors dislike, where do you draw the line?

If an addon author, on his own website, displays a banner ad soliciting support for, or posts a statement expressing support for, <take your pick of abortion rights, gay marriage, militant veganism, whale hunting, PETA, NAMBLA, or baby seal clubbing>, and you believe that <insert cause here> is "bad", do you think his addons should be deleted from WoWI/Curse?

If an addon author, on his own website, displays **** ads, do you think his addons should be deleted?

If an addon author, on his own website, uses a pink color scheme, and you hate the color pink, do you think his addons should be deleted?

Another point to consider is that if you did somehow convince WoWI and Curse to stop hosting DBM, you would actually be increasing the number of people viewing the DBM website's gold selling ads and WoWMatrix supporting posts, because everyone would have to go there to get the addon. With a solidly established and ubiquitously popular addon like DBM, you're not going to kill it off by removing it from the most popular addon hosting sites.

Also, what percentage of DBM users do you think have ever visited the DBM website? What percentage do you think visit the DBM website regularly? I would guess that the majority don't even know there is a DBM website. Again, forcing all DBM users to use the DBM website would accomplish nothing but increase revenue for DBM's authors and increase exposure to gold-selling ads.

Finally, the authors of DBM don't make any money from people downloading DBM from WoWI or Curse. If anything, it would make sense for you to try to get people to only download DBM from public addon hosts, and not from the DBM website.
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06-06-09, 04:55 PM   #18
Slakah
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Originally Posted by Phanx View Post
I'll just repost what I posted in the same thread on WoWAce:
etc.
Phanx this is a different thread, nowhere on the WoWI forum has Ackis mentioned removing DBM from WoWI.
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06-06-09, 04:58 PM   #19
Vyper
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Originally Posted by Phanx View Post
If you believe that because you dislike the fact that the authors of DBM express support for gold selling and WoWMatrix on their own website, there exists grounds for removing DBM from public addon hosts like WoWInterface and Curse, it would logically follow that you would argue in favor of deleting all addons whose authors supported something on their own website that you felt was "bad", even if no mention of that thing was to be found anywhere in the addon itself or on its WoWI/Curse download pages.
I don't know about WoWAce, but I haven't seen anyone here suggest it should be removed from the site. People have only stated that they don't like it and think it is questionable practice to display gold seller ads.
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06-06-09, 05:00 PM   #20
Petrah
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Originally Posted by Slakah View Post
Phanx this is a different thread, nowhere on the WoWI forum has Ackis mentioned removing DBM from WoWI.
I think as far as removing DBM from WoWI and Curse, he was possibly referring to post #14.
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