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11-05-09, 04:04 PM   #21
Yhor
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Originally Posted by forty2j View Post
Mounts - yes.
Gold - no. Then the sky really would be falling.

Most of us are OK that cash-for-items exist, so long as said items do not impede the competitveness of those that do not have them. In other words, I'm not going to be left out of a raid because I didn't have $10 to buy a panda.

On the other hand, gold purchasing would result in a skyrocketing economy, such that the only way anyone could compete for gems / BoEs / etc is if they were purchasing gold themselves. It then becomes a requirement to play the game, and missing $10 might cause me to be left out. Not good.

Now see, this is why the line is looking fuzzy for some people, and they're bracing their roof for falling objects. Games are generally about being competitive, from most raid bosses killed (and the time it took to kill them), to the amount and 'coolness' of the pets they collect. People who focus primarily on achievements are being left if they don't spend the cash.

Subscriptions are falling due to lack of interest (other games), limited time for players, China.., anger over changes, and many other reasons. If you took 10 seconds out of your time to think about why "the sky is falling" crowd reacts the way they do, instead of bashing them over the head with a "whiner" label (and vice versa), maybe you could empathize with them (you, meaning knee jerk reaction people from both sides of any debate).

Some people feel that at this point of WoWs development, there might be legitimate concern about what will come next. There are so many things that has been stated will NEVER occur in WoW...
PvE - PvP server transfers.
Faction Change.
Druids main tanking.
Hybrids excelling over other specialized classes.
Micro transactions.
There's more, but why be petty..

Things change given the right circumstances. Odds are that anything that is said will never happen, can happen, and sometimes do happen.

People have strong reactions to the changes made in WoW, because they have strong feelings about WoW or their friends that play it with them. When people feel threatened about any loss regarding something important to them, they are going to lash out. Same thing can be said about those who lash out at individuals for criticizing a company. They are standing up for what they feel is right as well, they don't want to lose the ability to buy their cool pet. They don't want to lose an opportunity to see "advancements" in the game they love be lost because some people are afraid of the consequences those changes will bring. Think about why people react the way they do before reacting harshly towards them.

*looks up*
Yep, sky is still there.
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11-05-09, 04:35 PM   #22
Sepioth
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so when does the subscription rate go down ... hehe


sorry some one had to say it


OWWWW ... something just hit me in the head ...

Ohh .. never mind it was my girlfriend slapping me .. and for a sec there I thought the sky was falling.

On a serious note .. I have no problem if people want to buy vanity items with real cash. It's their money they worked hard for .. not mine. You can buy crap loads of gaming cards in hopes to get a "cool" item so where is the difference here?

It's when items that actually give you an advantage over someone else is where I draw the line. I should not have to dish out MORE money (along with a monthly fee) to get those items.
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11-05-09, 04:54 PM   #23
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Sepioth, thank you sooo much for taking the getting-hit-on-the-head-reigns for stating what everyone is thinking out of my hands for a change. That was my thought exactly since Yhor started the thread, but I was holding my breath till someone else put it out there. So thank you again!
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11-05-09, 04:55 PM   #24
Vyper
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Originally Posted by Sepioth View Post
OWWWW ... something just hit me in the head ...

Ohh .. never mind it was my girlfriend slapping me .. and for a sec there I thought the sky was falling.
Wait? A WoW geek with a girlfriend?

*hides under a table and watches the sky intently*
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11-05-09, 04:57 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
I want one of each!






/agreed
My exact stance on this. This is in no way a bad move and it does not affect me at all. I'd love to have new vanity things
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11-05-09, 05:33 PM   #26
Laslo
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I really don't see the problem with this.

I'm sure everyone will poop their pampers at me saying this, but I really don't see a problem with them selling gold either. I fully get not wanting people to buy gold from outside sources, but buying it directly from Blizz? I don't see the big deal.

Who cares where people get their gold really? What are people gonna buy with the gold anyway? Powerlevel tradeskills? The Traveller's Tundra Mammoth? Gear from the AH that isn't as good (for the most part) as anything you can get the old fashioned way? Who cares about any of that stuff?

If anything, it levels the playing field a bit for people who have irregular or very little play time. Some of us can spend all day farming gold and acquiring whatever we want with said gold, while someone who works all day and has 3 kids to deal with can buy gold with the money they worked all day for and get the same stuff. It doesn't hurt my feelings when someone has the same stuff as me.

I also think this whole talk of it messing up the economy is silly. What's the difference between someone who farmed gold for a week buying some overpriced crap in the auction house versus someone who bought gold from Blizz? Blizz doesn't get any benefit from someone farming primals, and the person who sells the item on the AH never knows or cares where the person who bought the item got their money, so what does it matter?

Further, it's not like everybody in the game is gonna go out and buy 100k and be set for "life." The pets cost $10 each. I think we can all agree that that price is pretty steep. How much do you think a real substantial amount of gold is going to cost? $500? $1000? Many people (look at the wow.com post) have already talked about how they want the two pets but can't afford it right now. How much gold do you think they are really going to be able to afford?

All that being said, I do agree that things that actually impact game balance should not be sold for real life money. I just don't see that gold has any impact at all.

However, all this talk is probably pointless anyway, because it'll most likely never happen. Too many people are crying over two pets, let alone what will happen if they start selling gold or other items.
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11-05-09, 05:45 PM   #27
Sepioth
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Originally Posted by Vyper View Post
Wait? A WoW geek with a girlfriend?

*hides under a table and watches the sky intently*
ANd get this ... she plays WoW too ...



of course I DID get her into it
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11-05-09, 05:55 PM   #28
Petrah
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Originally Posted by Laslo View Post
I really don't see a problem with them selling gold either. I fully get not wanting people to buy gold from outside sources, but buying it directly from Blizz? I don't see the big deal.
It matters not where you get it or who is selling it. A screwed up economy is a screwed up economy, no matter how anyone tries to justify it.

I can't get my head wrapped around why people just don't get that.
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11-05-09, 06:34 PM   #29
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But see that's my point. How does it screw up the economy? In a video game, I don't understand how the source of the money matters.

Edit: People are buying gold now. I think more people than anyone realizes. What, in today's WoW "economy," would be different if that were not the case? You'd be selling less in the AH, because those people would not have the in-game funds to buy what you are selling. Further, how can you prove that anything going on in today's WoW economy has anything to do with the gold selling/buying that is going on already? All Blizz selling gold would do is at least eliminate SOME spam, and hopefully eliminate SOME bots. I don't see how any of that is a negative.

Last edited by Laslo : 11-05-09 at 06:39 PM.
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11-05-09, 06:50 PM   #30
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Look at it this way. If people are buying in game money with real cash it will cause the prices to jump up rather high as (quite a few) people will be willing to pay higher prices for in-game items. What will happen is those who can't afford to or are opposed to buying gold even if from a legit source will be forced to either spend (real) money to be able to buy in-game items, or they will have to spend insane amounts of time farming (more so than now) to obtain the gold or finally not participate in the in-game economy at all. The concept as a whole caters to people who have the real world finances to spend on gold. You don't get additional subs and monthly fees by alienating parts of your player base.

Not to mention that if blizzard were to participate in this concept it would be in their best interests to manipulate the market so that people will have to buy more gold to keep up. Thats just all sorts of ugly in the end.

Lets not forget that taking away from (in many cases) needed time to play will eventually hurt the subscriber base and therefore lose money from subs in the long run. Its a balancing act. Sure selling gold for them would give a quick boost of money but if you can buy 15k gold for that tundra mammoth then why bother making it 15k gold in the first place? Why not make it 50k to jack up the price and encourage people to spend even more cash for it? Why not just sell it for cash and skip the middle man?
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11-05-09, 07:14 PM   #31
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Look at it this way. If people are buying in game money with real cash it will cause the prices to jump up rather high as (quite a few) people will be willing to pay higher prices for in-game items. What will happen is those who can't afford to or are opposed to buying gold even if from a legit source will be forced to either spend (real) money to be able to buy in-game items, or they will have to spend insane amounts of time farming (more so than now) to obtain the gold or finally not participate in the in-game economy at all. The concept as a whole caters to people who have the real world finances to spend on gold. You don't get additional subs and monthly fees by alienating parts of your player base.

Not to mention that if blizzard were to participate in this concept it would be in their best interests to manipulate the market so that people will have to buy more gold to keep up. Thats just all sorts of ugly in the end.

Lets not forget that taking away from (in many cases) needed time to play will eventually hurt the subscriber base and therefore lose money from subs in the long run. Its a balancing act. Sure selling gold for them would give a quick boost of money but if you can buy 15k gold for that tundra mammoth then why bother making it 15k gold in the first place? Why not make it 50k to jack up the price and encourage people to spend even more cash for it? Why not just sell it for cash and skip the middle man?

Prices of what? The auction house is completely player controlled, and the prices, at least on my server, are completely out of hand already.

I don't think, at least as of right now, Blizzard would drive up the prices on vendor items just to get people to buy gold. The price of an item like the tundra mammoth is still very high. Based on how much the two pets in the pet store cost, I'd imagine the amount of cash you would need to buy the tundra mammoth would be at least a couple hundred dollars. That's still out of reach to a huge chunk of the player base, and another chunk of the player base would not be willing to spend the money even if they could afford it. Would lots of people do it? I'm sure they would, but I don't think enough would do it to have an impact on the entire server's economy. Blizz cranking up the prices on vendor items would only make said items more out of reach for those people unless they lowered the price of the gold.

We are still, in essence, talking about a vanity item. The tundra mammoth is not needed to progress in the game, and as far as I know guilds don't require it. It is a convenience. Because of that fact, I don't think it would ever be a huge problem. Of course, if they were to start making top-end gear available for real cash, we would have a problem. Based on what's available right now just on the auction house plus vendors, I don't see the big deal with those items flowing freely.

As far as buying gold impacting subscription rates, I don't think it will. We pay by the month, not the hour. I'm sure they would love people to pay them for a subscription and not use it. They still get the money with less strain on the servers.

Last edited by Laslo : 11-05-09 at 07:27 PM.
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11-05-09, 08:18 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
"Buying gold makes baby murlocs cry." ~Eyonix
*sigh* Now I don't know what to think. I am entirely against gold-selling, but on other hand, I tend to support anything that makes a murloc of any age experience distress. Oh Seerah, what have you done to my thought processes?

The idea in general says 'greed' to me. Of course, they are a business and turning a profit is the idea. The charity pet bothers me less because at least part of it is being donated. But in the end, as long as no one gets an advantage in-game by spending real money out-of-game, I really don't care.
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11-05-09, 08:44 PM   #33
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Well, I bought 'em.
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11-05-09, 08:57 PM   #34
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The mammoth was merely an example. Yes the AH is player controlled. And if buying gold becomes a service provided by blizzard what do you think will happen to those prices? They sure as hell aren't going to get better. They will get worse and mighty fast. Just look at the nonsense on the PTR for an example. Greed knows no bounds regardless of whether its for virtual gold or not. Further pushing the cost of certain items for the casual/non-raider player even further out of reach. I know I would be heavily disturbed by such a move. I won't believe for a second I'm alone in this. Nor do I feel I'm in the minority.

By making gold selling against the rules (yes i freely admit it hasn't stopped the process) it keeps the majority of players concerned about losing their account if they should do it. Remove that factor and I can imagine the game taking a HUGE dive as a result.

It would literally be in blizzard's interest to make buying gold more desirable if they should get involved in the practice. The rifts between players it would cause I don't feel is a bee's nest blizzard wants to agitate.

In the end however in very highly doubt this will ever happen.
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11-05-09, 09:21 PM   #35
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@laslo, in response to your actual point: I've been out of the real game for a while, but I *seriously* doubt that end game advancement isn't still dependent on the economy in some way or other. If the economy got as bad as it has been in some games, it would be impossible to properly tweak your character (enchants, pots, etc.) without guild organization -- which would break a lot of casual raid/pvp guilds, who are Bliz's target audience.
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11-05-09, 11:17 PM   #36
Yhor
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Originally Posted by Akryn View Post
<snip>

If the economy got as bad as it has been in some games, it would be impossible to properly tweak your character (enchants, pots, etc.) without guild organization -- which would break a lot of casual raid/pvp guilds, who are Bliz's target audience.
It would hurt the ones it would aim to help. I completely agree, but making this point is extremely hard to do to those who want it most (people who are "busy with real life", or lazy-ish people).

When I try to explain to my friend's kid what he does to his server's economy (and trade chat sanity) when he buys gold, I get a blank stare looking back at me like I'm attempting to steal his dog. If buying gold from WoW directly becomes available, a lot of people would buy it to escape farming mats, which drives prices of mats up because less people are farming for their own. Also, Crafting in WoW isn't rocket science; every crafted item has the same benefits (or iLevel, in the case of random stat crafted items). When mat costs rise because fewer people are farming them, crafters will start dwindling in numbers too, because there's less profit in the time invested... driving more and more need for players, casual and hardcore alike, to buy gold from Blizzard.

This is all hypothetical, as it is now, but still real concerns of people looking at what the future might hold for their game.
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11-06-09, 12:55 PM   #37
forty2j
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
People who focus primarily on achievements are being left if they don't spend the cash.
I'm working under the assumption that Blizzard will continue to balance achievements (such as collect x pets or y mounts) based on what can be accomplished in-game. The paid pets would be geared towards the "aww, that's cute" crowd or the "gotta-catch-em-all" crowd, but the "look at my GamerScore" crowd doesn't get any additional GamerScore by choosing to spend $10 on a Panda vs. spending 20 mins / day for a week on Kalua'ak rep for a Penguin, or by doing both.

If I find out to the contrary, however, your point is perfectly valid.
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11-06-09, 01:05 PM   #38
forty2j
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Originally Posted by Laslo View Post
Who cares where people get their gold really? What are people gonna buy with the gold anyway? Powerlevel tradeskills? The Traveller's Tundra Mammoth? Gear from the AH that isn't as good (for the most part) as anything you can get the old fashioned way? Who cares about any of that stuff?
If it's legal for people to buy gold, and they can use it to powerup a tradeskill, and there's a minor advantage in changing tradeskills between instances (or even, between bosses), can you see a large number of guilds (or hell, the GearScore/LinkAchieve PuG raid crowd) requiring it? I can.

What does that do for the reroll/alt who is leveling normally and trying to level his tradeskill naturally? The materials will either be gone, or be prohibitively expensive - unless they purchase gold themselves, which is not terribly realistic.

This is just one example.. there are no bounds to the amount of damage that can be done by a nearly unlimited influx of gold. Think of the gems, the scrolls, the enchants, the "primals".. the stuff you always need to buy at max level when you get an upgrade.


If anything, it levels the playing field a bit for people who have irregular or very little play time. Some of us can spend all day farming gold and acquiring whatever we want with said gold, while someone who works all day and has 3 kids to deal with can buy gold with the money they worked all day for and get the same stuff. It doesn't hurt my feelings when someone has the same stuff as me.
I'm not entirely sure why you're discounting the possibility of someone with regular play time also buying gold to supplement their farming.
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11-06-09, 01:16 PM   #39
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hmm, there are already "lazy" and "casual" (read: little time to play) players in wow, so many in fact, at any given time on the AH prices of ANY starter mats (copper ore, peacebloom, light leather) are at a lvl that NO true new player could afford to purchase them w/o gathering those same mats and selling them as well to make income.

as players reach high levels (read: 70+), gold becomes, hmm.. trivial? you can now gather mats safely (read: not die while gathering) and sell them for huge profits, as well as quests now raining in the gold. about the only things hindering a player from making silly amounts of gold in later levels is being undercut on the AH or refusing to quest/farm. ^_^

as for buying gold for real money? its already happening, and the economy has not gone bust yet, however since its against the rules, ppl who do so also can get caught and banned, thus buying the economy a little time to stay stable before it goes bust, whereas if it was not against the rules, those that would have been banned (read: gold sellers/buyers) can now be included in the economy, which will now go bust faster then it would have previously. How long would that take? not a clue, im no mathematician, but you can be sure it would happen.

seriously tho, how many things in the economy are actually used on a daily basis? gems/glyphs/food/pots/chants... anything else is one time purchase per player (read: gear/pets/mounts). and blizz was smart enough to make access to those things we DO buy on a daily basis to only be accessible AFTER lvling up a craft to nearly max with items farmed ^_^ so therefore farmed items are also a daily mover. and as long as gathering materials are worth alot, ppl will use them to make gold alot.

if gold can be bought, but the mats can not, would be silly to buy the gold, only to be stuck with the gold to buy mats that dont exist and i think ppl would see that problem and continue to farm mats and sell them for gold, keeping the economy quite alive and kicking, albiet, for a higher price then before is all... Sally bought gold and is willing to pay John to farm her mats.

so, now we are left with Jane, who doesn't buy gold, and no matter her reason for not buying gold, she still needs the mats, but doesn't want to pay john to farm them, so must go farm them herself...

isn't this ALREADY happening in wow? don't ppl ALREADY pay john to farm mats for them, regardless how they got their gold, as well as ppl who refuse to pay john to farm their mats, and they instead farm their own mats??? ppl who pay john to farm their mats now would have to pay john more to do so if ppl buy gold, and i think that is where a lot of ppl are most annoyed, they simply don't WANT to pay john more, amirght?
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11-06-09, 05:19 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
What the heck is this icon meant to be ?

It looks like a grim reaper having an epileptic fit !
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