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03-20-09, 05:32 PM   #21
Tekkub
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Ended? They just changed the subject of the debate I'm afraid.
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03-20-09, 05:35 PM   #22
Petrah
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Originally Posted by trezy View Post
nUI has a "Premium" version for the people who donate, which has raid frames and stuff that the free version doesn't. But its basically a thank you for the people who donate.

Scott has more info in his forums.

lol I know. I am a nUI supporter and a tester for it on the PTR. I was referring to an actual donate button inside of the game. However, there is a mention of nUI support via donations in the chatbox when you first log in... which basically gets buried and pushed out view from other addons loading.

I can understand the ruling to a degree. It doesn't mean that I agree with it though
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03-20-09, 06:08 PM   #23
Petrah
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Originally Posted by spiel2001 View Post
I figured since I'm in the mood to do a lot of whining tonight, I would spread the wealth into this thread, as well ~faint smile~

The problem with asking for donations on your download sites is no one cares... most of them never see it because of the updaters and when they do, it doesn't matter to them.

The simple fact is basic human psychology... people don't pay for something they can have for free. Period. Except for a few people of exceptional moral fabric, most people couldn't give two shakes about the time and effort the mod author invests.

Before I split nUI into Lite and Pro, it was a go week to make over $20 in donations and you know that I had donate links on every nUI page and in every update post I made. It wasn't until there was a perceived value in donations (the thank you raid panels) that people started to support nUI.

It's just the sad truth.
I am truly on your side here, Scott. Don't think for one moment that I'm not (hugs). This whole thing irritates me to no end because I love nUI (my boyfriend teases me about it endlessly, in a joking way of course). Considering how much of a tightwad I am with my cash, nUI had to be something pretty darn unique for me to part with the amount that I did (even though I know that programmers make far far more than that per hour). I also donated because of your current situation and I firmly believe that what comes around goes around (be good to someone and your good deed comes back to you threefold).

I've completely lost my train of thought here I just know that nUI makes my play time more pleasurable, and if I could afford to pay you what your time was worth, I would without hesitation.
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03-20-09, 06:08 PM   #24
Yhor
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I canceled my account and then tried to post in the Blizzard forums thread. Apparently I can't post there now, but I can post in the realm forums. I'm wondering if this is a bug, or if the new forums want to silence what people have to say. I won't reactivate my account to post this, and if anyone thinks it relevant or useful, please copy paste, if you like.

---------------------
Sad day, imo. Not that Blizzard implemented these rules, but that they think they had to. I think their free of charge policy is going too far, but on the same side of the coin, in game solicitation (that others can see) is also going too far (I'm not familiar with the offenders, and I won't pretend to be).

Now, to say they have the "right" to not allow money to be paid for programmer's work (that doesn't violate the general ToS / EULA), is out of the scope of what WoW (or MMOs in general) really are. When people have issues/problems, and they go to an ADDON or these forums or a friend they think will know the answer... who answers back 9 out of 10 times? It's not Blizzard, it IS the COMMUNITY.

Community effort is what keeps Blizzard in business; without it (and the ability to keep it), Blizzard would go out of business. There are some addons that, if removed (or a specific function of that said addon), I'd not play this game. Blizzard fails to deliver in the area of 'real' customer service; addons (and the advice of their authors) sometimes fill the needs of giving the player what they want in order to keep them playing the game. If this advice or help comes at a price, the person needing help has options.

These options include waiting for Blizzard help, getting help from someone who may or may not be as knowledgeable as Blizzard or 'paid' author, getting an addon that fixes the problem, ignore the problem, or just quit playing. When you start taking options away, you lose customers, you lose interest, and you lose freedom. If I'm attempted to be forced into to anything, I fight it, that is my nature. I think for myself and depend on myself for my right to be who I am. Sure, this is just a game, but it's a real community and I feel it necessary (as do others) to voice my opinion of what is right in a "free" society. If it must come to taking away my options, and members of this community away, then I'll go away with it (as will others who have PRINCIPLES).

I donated money to charities, institutions, and even addon authors. I continue to support those who make no demands of it, but to those that try to enforce my continued support, I end my relationship with them. Ask St. Jude's children hospital, I donated to them for ~ 1 year, every quarter. When they started mass mailing and strongarming me into support, I ended our relationship. Same for the addon authors who took this same approach with in game chat screens filled with their sob story or constant update info (as useful as they were), ended. I don't need the Government, or Blizzard to end my relationship for my own safety, I'm capable of that myself.

So, I'd suggest that Blizzard rethink and / or reword their new terms in regards to addons. It could be more damaging to them than they realize. Or maybe I'm wrong and the players of WoW are just mindless sheep that follow the herd.

It's about the principle.

~Yhor

Last edited by Yhor : 03-20-09 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Grammar
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03-20-09, 06:11 PM   #25
Gryphon
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I imagine it is just something to keep them from being liable in the case that a user gets screwed by some third party addon. I would be surprised if they are going to bother even trying to monitor and enforce the policy without being provoked by legal action against Blizzard by some dope who got scammed by purchasing an addon or something.
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03-20-09, 06:14 PM   #26
Tekkub
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
I canceled my account and then tried to post in the Blizzard forums thread. Apparently I can't post there now
I know it's wrong of me because you're trying to show your support to the authors (even tho some of us support this new rule)... but I laughed at this.
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03-20-09, 06:19 PM   #27
p3lim
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I usually get donations from people that asks for major feature implementations in my add-on(s).

Though as long there are no direct ads and they don't bother people (such as popups, chat spam and so on) I support donation buttons, both on sites and in-game.

The one reason why they should be in-game is because, as mentioned earlier, are other leeching sites and the automatic updates.

And also as spiel said, if its free, why pay?
Don't think of it as a payment, think of it as a gift (this goes for the end-users).
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03-20-09, 06:27 PM   #28
Tekkub
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"to support the hundreds of hours I spend developing this mod for your enjoyment" sounds like an underhanded attempt at solicitation to me. Why not just say "They say I can't solicit donations, so I won't. Instead I'll simply ask you to visit my site [link] and show your support how you see fit."

And then give your rant there
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03-20-09, 06:28 PM   #29
Cairenn
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spiel, imo, you should put your donation link back up. I think you would be surprised.
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03-20-09, 06:29 PM   #30
Yhor
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Originally Posted by spiel2001 View Post
~lmao~

Okay... I have a solution.

Bliz says I can't ask for donations in game, I think what I'll do is change the one time splash screen text (shown the first time you load nUI after updating the version) and the one time per login chat frame message with the following...

"Blizzard has established rules that prohibit me from asking you for a donation to support the hundreds of hours I spend developing this mod for your enjoyment, so I won't. However, I would ask you to go to http://www.nUIaddon.com and tell Blizzard to go to hell"

~snicker~

This made my day brighter.
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03-20-09, 06:36 PM   #31
Cairenn
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Well, you know that we are trying to come up with ways to help, too. Give everyone some time, hey?
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03-20-09, 06:41 PM   #32
Spahut
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Originally Posted by Silenia View Post
Yes, I know

My point was that the buttons in game can be removed, and he can still get donations from the pages where he distributes his addons.
Except a lot of people use downloaders like wowmatrix and others, which automatically downloads the addons - so they'll never see the website.
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03-20-09, 06:48 PM   #33
Yhor
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I canceled my account and then tried to post in the Blizzard forums thread. Apparently I can't post there now, but I can post in the realm forums. I'm wondering if this is a bug, or if the new forums want to silence what people have to say.
Apparently was a bug.
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03-20-09, 07:31 PM   #34
Darkorical
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First I want to say I'm still tossed up over the no "for pay" addons rule. I am a programmer myself and I'll never argue that programmers don't deserve compensation for the work they do. Especially people who make mods that attempt to please such a large range of people and take time to listen to requests and input from so many people.(Seriously you guys are awesome *Yes all of you. Even the ones who make ridiculously simple/stupid mods)

HOWEVER

I for one think that people complaining about the rules regarding in game donation buttons are are being quite ridiculous I have a couple mods that have in game donation buttons and I for one always laugh at them when I see them because I feel they are the dumbest idea ever. Do the authors who write these mods actually expect this conversation to happen.

Player 1: Alright guys one boss down two to go.
Player 2: Hold up guys I need a sec to alt tab out and donate to this mod.
or this

Player 1: Alright guys its 3am I'm headed to bed
Player 1: has gone offline.
Player 1: has came online.
Player 2: I thought you were going to bed
Player 2: I was but I forgot to copy the donate link from my new mod.
The answer is NO that isn't going to happen.

So evidently that's not why the authors put it in there. So I must assume that argument is actually "If I don't put it where they can find the link (in game) they wont be able to find my site to donate if they choose to."

What kind of morons do you think are downloading your mod that they would completely forget where to go to get your addon AND develop an allergy to Google that prevents them from searching to find it.

But then again how would they get the updates if they didn't know how to find you.

"Well there are updaters out there like wowmatrix and curse's updater and such so they never have to come to my site so they never donate from there."

Solutions to that issue.

1.) Stop offering your mod through there so they have to come to you.

Argument against solution #1: They will stop using mine and find one that is easier to update.

If they don't care enough about what mod they are using for that purpose were they really going to track you down to donate anyway? But you may be right so lets move to solution #2

2.) Add a notification in game that there is a new version to the mod and they should visit your site to download it. And release updates 2-3 days behind to the auto updaters so people have incentive to visit your site(and will see your donate link and maybe even think I came here to get this addon and I like it I should donate something. But they don't have to and can still use their auto updaters. There is a trick to making this work better Update with newer and better improvements to your mods often. This will serve 2 purposes actually 1. Getting people to your site. and 2. If you update often and people know it they will appreciate it and show it.


Personally I think this move by blizzard is directed at the leveling guide mods that charge for use and can quite easily be and several have been a scam.

I think that removing that aspect of things is a good move.

I have also heard that there are theories that some mods with obscured code may be hiding account security compromising functions.

To prevent this banning obscured code seems to be a logical step. However it makes it somewhat difficult for people who make legitimate for pay mods to keep a hold of their mod and keep it proprietary.

I can think of another solution that would be far worse that we should all be glad Blizzard didn't decide on.

mod writers apply for a key for each mod blizzard sends them a key then anytime the mod is loaded it asks blizzard if it can run. When the authors finish the mod they submit it to blizzard to for inspection if blizzard approves it they activate the key and then and only then can it be used in game.

personally Ill be ok with the changes as they are.
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03-20-09, 07:43 PM   #35
Ashamam
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I would hazard a guess the two main drivers of this are carbonite and questhelper.

Carbonite due to the paid nature and Questhelper due to the GM support (read relocate toons out of dalaran) in game that must be supplied.

I can't off the top of my head think of any mod that has a higher overhead than questhelper. Or such a large user base.
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03-20-09, 07:47 PM   #36
Tehryn
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Originally Posted by Silenia View Post
I am truly on your side here, Scott. Don't think for one moment that I'm not (hugs). This whole thing irritates me to no end because I love nUI (my boyfriend teases me about it endlessly, in a joking way of course). Considering how much of a tightwad I am with my cash, nUI had to be something pretty darn unique for me to part with the amount that I did (even though I know that programmers make far far more than that per hour). I also donated because of your current situation and I firmly believe that what comes around goes around (be good to someone and your good deed comes back to you threefold).

I've completely lost my train of thought here I just know that nUI makes my play time more pleasurable, and if I could afford to pay you what your time was worth, I would without hesitation.
I totally agree (not too sure about the hugs though )
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03-20-09, 08:40 PM   #37
Darkorical
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WoWMatrix could care less if a mod author wants to allow them to offer their mod... they do it anyway even when asked not to by the author. So not using that service is not an option.
Ill grant you that one (we should find a way to start a boycott against them)

Secondly, if you're not on the major download sites, you don't have exposure or traffic and, therefore, are dead before you start. Period. You don't have the option to not have your mod auto-updated by the updaters at the major sites, so either you fail because no one sees your mod or you fail because of the updater.
dude you are nUI your users WILL find you. I don't care if you dropped every major site out there and put up a domain called JimmysUIhut.com they will find you (at least I'm pretty sure my wife would)

How do you propose I do that? Have my mod check every player you bump into to see if they're using my mod so I can tell you there's is newer than yours. Nope... can't do that... I haven't released it yet.

So... release an update to tell you I"m going to release an update? That's kind of expensive for the user and the download sites, and me to create the update to tell you there's going to be an update before there's an update.
I don't know how its done but I know Carbonite and WIM both have a way of doing it so I know its not impossible.

Flaw in the theory... why are they going to go to my site because I told them there was going to be an update that their auto-updater is going to get for them anyway? They'll just wait. And if they do go to the site, it'll be to get the update, not to donate. Or do I spam them to death on the site so that they don't bother coming back anymore?
go look up a vid called "Sony Releases Stupid Piece Of Sh** That Doesn't F**** Work"
most people will do just about anything for the newest and greatest version of something(especially that fancy UI that gets ooohs and ahhhs every time they post a screen shot.

a baseless conspiracy theory... mods do not even exist until well after the login process. It is not possible to capture account security data from a mod unless the player types it in open chat... in which case their security was already gone
you may be right about that but what about information gatherers there are several database mods that gather information and others that can log chat and several that can use that chat itself.
personally I have considered the idea of a mod that watched chat for key words and recorded their context. To do psychological studies on people who play wow. ie watching chat for "I'm married with X children" to get statistics on people with kids who play and that conversation is followed by the kids ages so I can get further demographics and such information might be worth money if sold to the proper data collection agencies who use such info to send spam and such.

so even if they aren't stealing your account they could still be doing bad things.

Quote:
personally Ill be ok with the changes as they are.
I'm not.
on several points I cant blame you. In ways I can defiantly see where you are getting the shaft. I mean your addon makes wow playable for many people if they were left with the default UI they'd leave and play something else. Blizzard is making the money from those subscriptions BECAUSE OF YOUR WORK and yet you cannot request any form of compensation other than an often obscured donation button.

Please don't get me wrong I cant blame anyone from getting upset but I don't think an in game donation button is that big of a deal I only knew of one mod that had it before this whole thing started and I went and looked I found out that SEVERAL of the ones I use have it and I never knew it.
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03-20-09, 09:07 PM   #38
Leviathonlx
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Originally Posted by ckknight View Post
I agree with most of the points except for

'5) Add-ons may not solicit donations.'

I have absolutely no intention to remove my donation buttons in my addons. I consider my buttons non-obtrusive and non-annoying.

Also, how do they really expect to enforce this? They could theoretically ban individual addons, but I really doubt they would.

Also, as someone who approves and denies addons on CurseForge and WowAce, how can we really enforce this on our end without opening up every single lua file?
I'd imagine the baddons file that was added into the MPQ and in the WDB folder with WotLK is what they will use to ban addons.

The game currently does not interact with the file but I'd imagine that will be changing with 3.1. Editing or deleting the file won't do anything since it is recreated at login and probably would revert any changes.

Last edited by Leviathonlx : 03-20-09 at 09:13 PM.
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03-20-09, 09:33 PM   #39
frogofdoom
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Originally Posted by Leviathonlx View Post
I'd imagine the baddons file that was added into the MPQ and in the WDB folder with WotLK is what they will use to ban addons.

The game currently does not interact with the file but I'd imagine that will be changing with 3.1. Editing or deleting the file won't do anything since it is recreated at login and probably would revert any changes.
Ouch, Big Brother is watching.

Here's my better-thought-out two cents that isn't motivated by a desire to get on the first page:

I can see what's motivated Blizzard to ban paid addons. It's a pretty transparent ass-covering on their part. People who play WoW are just dumb enough to sue Blizzard over getting scammed a mod that they paid for, and Blizzard realizes that, but I think they've opened up a can of worms they didn't foresee.

To be honest, I really don't see a problem with providing a better product for those who donate to the cause, and Blizzard certainly has no right to declare that people aren't allowed to sell their own original code, just because it happens to be written using the WoW API.

I think the most mutually beneficial course of action now, is for authors to not do a damn thing. That's right. I say leave your donation buttons and premium versions in there and defy Blizzard to punish you for it. Based on what I've seen today, I think the community will stand by you in not budging on this issue.

Besides, If I know Blizzard, they'll back down on this before the modding community does.

Last edited by frogofdoom : 03-20-09 at 09:36 PM.
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03-20-09, 09:49 PM   #40
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It's almost April 1st guys, might have anything to do with the Blizz announcement?
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WoWInterface » General Discussion » Chit-Chat » WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread

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