WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread

[Tristanian]

I mean honestly, how can someone confuse a 3rd party application that runs totally independent of WoW (meaning that it does NOT require a sandbox environment like lua scripts do) and manipulates memory addresses, effectively interfering with the way copyrighted code loads and works, with an addon that simply references API calls and cannot run as a standalone application (not to mention that the things it can do are limited to what the environment will allow). You cannot copyright API references. The only valid analogy the recent policy has with the Glider case, is Blizzard's right to potentially sue for tortuous interference with contract, assuming they can prove damages (let's say man hours) from an unauthorized addon running on their platform. Funny thing is, Glider is referred to as an addon, in that article

Like I said, wtb new, non-biased lawyer (preferably someone with some basic technical background on such cases).

[EWOlson]

This lawyers' credentials are a joke. And the fact that Zam chose to interview her for any kind of serious discussion on this issue shows that Zam also can't see past its own prejudices.

I support Blizzard fully in this. And that is rare for me.

[syberghost]

I found the article very interesting, and I don't question Connie's credentials as an attorney, but I think if you're looking for an impartial legal interpretation of a Blizzard policy, you probably shouldn't be asking a lawyer currently representing somebody being sued for violating Blizzard policies. She has a definite iron in that fire.

However, there is value in interviewing somebody with an iron in that fire; just as there would be value in interviewing somebody from Blizzard about this issue.

All in all, good interview.

[Jaybur]

So did Blizz ban Cog or something, or did they just scrub through all those 100 pages and delete his posts? Just wondering, because I would think that is pretty piss poor if he got banned for his posts.

[Sepioth]

If you mean Cogwheel as far as I know he packed his bags and left WoW addon development

[Cogwheel]

Originally Posted by Jaybur So did Blizz ban Cog or something, or did they just scrub through all those 100 pages and delete his posts? Just wondering, because I would think that is pretty piss poor if he got banned for his posts.

http://pastey.net/111554

Cliff's notes: they gave me a temp ban for a legitimate reason and deleted the offending thread. I responded to the "you're banned" e-mail with sincere understanding and an apology. Some time later they post wiped me. I can't figure it out. Deleting all my posts does far more harm to the community than it punishes me.

Edit: have to this bit of irony for those who don't want to follow the link:

The most ironic aspect of all of this is that I was already taking a break from the forums while I work on the next edition of WoW Programming. At 8:53 this morning I wrote the following message in #wowuidev on freenode.net:

/me bans himself from the forums

I was actually quite amused that it turned out to be predictive. Emphasis on "was."

[Yhor]

I was also banned for a legitimate reason, then a number of my posts were wiped... even a few that were defending Blizzard about the ads in game 'scare'. Fortunately, I'm no Cogwheel, so it's no real loss that my posts were wiped.

Three hours after my ban was through, I was banned again for simply answering "yes I was", when someone asked if being banned was the reason I hadn't been around. No big deal though, my sub expired during my last ban and I have no intention of going through the aggravation I went through with Star Wars Galaxies (so much that Blizzard does reminds of SWG from CU through NGE).

Guess I'll play Runes of Magic until SWOTOR comes out, at least it won't cost me anything.

I will miss the community, but the game itself has left me feeling abandoned and bitter .

[Cogwheel]

Originally Posted by Yhor I was also banned for a legitimate reason, then a number of my posts were wiped... even a few that were defending Blizzard about the ads in game 'scare'. Fortunately, I'm no Cogwheel, so it's no real loss that my posts were wiped.

Yeah huh! I lurved your posts!!

Three hours after my ban was through, I was banned again for simply answering "yes I was", when someone asked if being banned was the reason I hadn't been around. No big deal though, my sub expired during my last ban and I have no intention of going through the aggravation I went through with Star Wars Galaxies (so much that Blizzard does reminds of SWG from CU through NGE). Guess I'll play Runes of Magic until SWOTOR comes out, at least it won't cost me anything. I will miss the community, but the game itself has left me feeling abandoned and bitter .

Wow that sucks. If you're ever in wine country you'll have to let me take you out for a drink or 10.

[Jaybur]

Hey cog, thanks for the response. I noticed after my earlier post that it did look like they did a complete post wipe.

That is just crazy. I guess they cant take any opinions that disagree with theirs.

Good Luck with everything.

[Tuhljin]

Many months ago, after someone that was banned returned to the forums (I don't remember who), I saw a thread where they asked about this same sort of thing and a CM explained that post wipes are automatic to some extent. I don't have a link or anything, but I definitely remember something about it being automatic and the CM wishing it didn't happen since the user had some good stickies, then asking them to repost them if they wished so they could be stickied again.

[mundocani]

I don't know how to react about Cogwheel getting banned and purged, but I'm shocked. I had half a bottle of Pinot Noir this afternoon and a carafe of Muscadet this evening with dinner, so maybe it's best if I just sleep on it before reacting. This is such a disappointing move on Blizzard's part.

(I live in the South bay Cog, if I'm in Napa/Sonoma or you're down here I'd sure have a drink or 20 with you :)

[Cladhaire]

Originally Posted by mundocani I don't know how to react about Cogwheel getting banned and purged, but I'm shocked. I had half a bottle of Pinot Noir this afternoon and a carafe of Muscadet this evening with dinner, so maybe it's best if I just sleep on it before reacting. This is such a disappointing move on Blizzard's part. (I live in the South bay Cog, if I'm in Napa/Sonoma or you're down here I'd sure have a drink or 20 with you

I am really sorry to hear that they wiped all of the posts, but since everyone here thinks I'm a mindless fanboi zombie I'll say that it was just the easy way out for them. It's clear they felt the editing of a macro guide he had posted, created and maintained was an abuse of his power as an MVP (which isn't his fault that it stayed green). At that point, either they have to go through all of his posts to see what else has been said or done.. or they just wipe them.

Also it's likely the post was reported in the first place, and there may have been other posts of his reported as well. This really sucks, but I suspect its more about the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing than any actual malicious intent or revenge.

[Cogwheel]

Originally Posted by Cladhaire This really sucks, but I suspect its more about the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing than any actual malicious intent or revenge.

That's the best conclusion I've been able to come up with, but the timing of the events definitely makes me wonder what went on behind the scenes. When I first got the "you're banned" notice, they had deleted the offending post. The wipe didn't come until long after I replied to them. Maybe Zarhym didn't see my e-mail, maybe it was some other mod, who knows? Like all the other fallout of this policy, it's all just ex recto speculation until someone from blizzard says otherwise.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Cogwheel Like all the other fallout of this policy, it's all just ex recto speculation until someone from blizzard says otherwise.

And I think none of us expect them to say anything, ever...

[spiel2001]

Cog --

I just had to pop in and say this saddens me... deeply. I think it's pretty indicative of where Bliz's head is now. They've forgotten what it was that got them where they are.

As an author... thanks for fighting the good fight.

[Tuhljin]

I sympathize with Cog here somewhat, but there's more to this than his side, guys. I'm sorry, and I wasn't going to even mention this before out of respect to him, and in trying to avoid the (frankly) stupid arguments of those who misuse the label "fanboy," but with people lining up to vilify Blizzard over this, well, I've just got to say that Cog did some things I found very ban-worthy, which seemed to also be the feeling of a number of other players posting on the UI forums. To his credit, Cog at least partially acknowledged that in this thread. Just keep that in mind.

[Tekkub]

I haven't heard anyone yet that *doesn't* agree that the ban made sense. The thing that's upsetting people is the post wipe some time after the ban.

[Cogwheel]

Originally Posted by Tekkub I haven't heard anyone yet that *doesn't* agree that the ban made sense. The thing that's upsetting people is the post wipe some time after the ban.

Exactly. Even if they had perma-banned me it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I'm not one to begrudge the consequences of my actions, whether intended or not.

[Tuhljin]

I know what you're saying, and it's understandable, but as several of us have related, it's also a fairly standard thing that happens and not likely a targeted or calculated move, and despite that being mentioned, it still seemed some people aren't giving that its fair weight... but really, it seems people just read into it what they want to to reinforce their own opinions.

[Yhor]

I think what people will view as fair, or not fair, depends on what side of the issue it is that they stand. The actions, reactions, and non-actions are everyday occurrences in everyday life, and are not exclusive to WoW or something that is WoW related. Whether or not people see the actions of any parties involved to be justifiable to them, is besides the point. Emotional responses are the usual way to express what side you are on, and emotional responses are generally the responses that sway a point of view in one or another direction, the logicical and reasoned responses typically fail, imo, due to the lack of emotion the reader (or audience, if you will) gets from it (logic doesn't stick in one's mind like emotion does).

Some of this discussion seems to hit every logical point head on, yet gets overlooked or dismissed as being absurd. This brings the person that made the points try harder, to make these points stick, and the end result looks as though it's a QQ fest of people out for their own interests, when this couldn't be farther from the truth. This isn't exclusive to one side of the issue or the other, it's both sides, trying to persuade the other that their way is the right way and it should just be accepted and all parties agree and have a slumber party... forgetting about the personal nature in which some of the points were delivered.

Now, to me, what made this all the more frustrating, were the ones who made their best efforts to stop the efforts of those who wanted to discuss the changes in policy, and attempt to reverse the descision to implement the policy. They had no personal interest, so they said, whether the policy stayed or went away. They had no opinion, so they said, other than you weren't allowed an opinion... "because Blizzard said so" should be good enough. People who brought no substance what-so-ever, were trying to strongarm people into dropping the discussion, and for no apparent reason, other than "because Blizzard said so".

So, now there are a number of people who 'used to be' valuable members of the community, who simply have no interest in continuing that service that they were happy to provide, for no compensation, due to lack of acknowledgement by Blizzard. There are those who did it for compensation, that no longer have a motivation to continue. There are also those who continue, that had no interest in the issue at all, or felt the whole issue was an overreaction. *There also 'seems' to be a few new people who are attempting to serve the community -because- of the attention this drew to the issue, and they see an opportunity to help.

I think it's way too early to see how much of an effect this will have on Blizzard, but unless some people change their mind (or heart), and other newer people continue to learn and help out, then one can only assume that the negative effects will greatly outweigh the positive.

And even though I'm not an author, I still feel the policy, the method in which the policy was delivered, the "discussion" about the policy by both sides, and the apparent lack of interest to join in the discussion.. on ANY level, by Blizzard, has left me feeling... (self edit).

I hope this doesn't come off as me trying to rehash this whole episode, because it's not. It's just a simple minded observation that I felt I 'needed' to share, and my whole point is that, imo, none of -us- were right or wrong (those of us that had a point to make, other than "because Blizzard said so"), but just that some things are almost impossible for everyone to agree on, 100%.

And a secondary point: I was banned and had posts wiped, I really don't see a huge impact in one way or the other. However, when people such as Cogwheel, have their posts wiped, it makes no sense to me (yeah, it -might- be exactly how the ban process -works-, but imo, that's a poor excuse) to wipe the ability of someone that has helped the community so much from things they have contributed in the past. And for the comment of "former MVP should be treated more 'harshly'" (paraphrased, and the post was on the official forums, iirc), no one should be treated any differently than the next, in this context at least. In most cultures, the opposite would be true, ie. if a U.S. Representative were to be charged with speeding, 9 out of 10 times they would receive a lesser punishment than the average Joe. I'm not saying it's -right-, but to implement a harsher punishment (or lesser punishment) because someone was a valued member of a community is just mind boggling, to me. I'm not saying -don't- punish them, just that punishment should be equal to everyone else.

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