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View Poll Results: Does a modern society need religion. | |||
Yes, yes it does | 21 | 28.38% | |
No, no it doesn't | 53 | 71.62% | |
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll |
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10-27-10, 03:09 AM | #41 |
Everything we do in life is a matter of choice, and it should come as no surprise that religion is one of those choices. I chose to be an atheist, just as some people chose to be theists.
The problem isn't really whether a modern society needs religion, because religion will *always* be there, in one form or another. The issue is how to deal with religion, knowing full well how embedded it is into society, and even matters of state. I'm from Romania, and one verse of our national anthem loosely translates 'Priests, with the cross out in front! for the army is christian'. The difficulty in handling religion is its ambiguity. How can something that comforts people, and brings communities together, but at a moment's notice, can be turned into an instrument of war, be controlled? Maybe controlled isn't the best word, but in my view, an ideal modern society would be based on common sense, responsibility and order. Religion shouldn't be a major factor, it should remain something personal and intimate.
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10-27-10, 03:52 AM | #42 | |
And to answer on that: I don't believe in either because it is not important to me. I simply am, because my parents had a great night together and I am the result~ And when I die I die. I am not frightened of death itself. If it happens it happens. I am frightened about how it might happen though. And why should I be frightened at all? I don't know if something like a hell or heaven really exists, so why should I waste time worrying about it? Spending all my life for just finding out that in the end there is the absolute nothing or something I least expected? I don't expect anything. That way I cannot be disappointed. (If one is even capable of being disappointed or if there is simply a /dev/null so to speak.) Oh yeah my favourite thought on exactly this topic: IF a government is supporting and sporting religion, there's no reason to not accept criminal acts by simply saying "God told me to do it!". It would justify everything and no one can prove you wrong if they officially state "Yes, religion/god exists and we as a government believe in it!". If they believe in religion, they also believe that he really has the power to interact with individual people (Moses for example had a nice convo with god on some certain mountain .P) so how would regular people have the right to say " But he didn't talk to you and you are just lying! "? They couldn't prove it at all and would have to accept it. Because if they don't believe you, they shouldn't believe in their religion either because that also "could" be a lie. And yeah, this is my reason for saying: Those two should definately be divided by law. You cannot connect religion and government because it brings major flaws in either the one or the other. Last edited by Aarokh : 10-27-10 at 04:06 AM. |
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10-27-10, 05:09 AM | #43 | ||||
And the ten commandments are in todays constitutions because they are the base of our survival. It's in human nature (for normal people) to know that killing is a bad thing. Yet we kill people everyday. The ten commandments aren't in the constitutions because some old wise guy got them from god. They are the base of a society that can live together. Moses knew that when he had to stay at his mountain for 40 years or so. Egyptians knew it some 1000's of years before him. And we still know it. But it's not our god that says it, it's our common sense.
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10-27-10, 06:40 AM | #44 |
An interesting few points raised by Haylie, but I would contend one major flaw in your argument, religion is most certainly NOT split in the USA in fact it too has a Christian monopoly 78.5%!!
Interestingly enough this makes no difference to my personal beliefs, I consider myself an agnostic athiest. All you agnostics out there probably are too and most of you thiest's (believers) are probably agnostic thiest's. This might help explain it! However, my answer to the initial question is 'No' we don't NEED religion in our modern society (however you care to define either) but without religion in our society would it be any better or worse? That I don't know! As Haylie points out we need to define society, China for example was run by an atheist communist party and between 1942 and 1980 religion was banned. Post 1980 more religious freedoms were granted. They are still run by a communist party but they are no longer enforcing atheism on the masses. Which was better for the society....probably the one with religion allowed! But ONLY because it was something they had taken away. You cannot expect a society anywhere in the world to act the same if something they once took for granted is forceably removed from them. However, if you were able to find societies that developed with a complete absence of religious belief and compare them to ones that did develop religions you would then find your answer as to if religion is needed or not. However, by my (somewhat limited) knowledge there are no such religion free societies, and therefore the answer would be a definitive YES religion is needed, otherwise there would already be societies without religion!! Confused yet....I am!! Finally should people be allowed to believe in whatever they want with out reprimand or abuse from other? ABSOLUTELY.
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10-27-10, 06:53 AM | #45 | |||||
I think this
Content is irrelevant because this discussion shouldn't be about which religion is better or who needs to be pulled out of a "bubble." It should be about the umbrella term religion as it relates to society, not about how Christianity or Paganism or Judaism or Islam or Buddhism each individually effects society. Unless you've misled us.
But again, that's more about belief than it is religion, and the individual than society. Religion is an effective tool for society, but its potential necessity lies at a more individual level in my opinion. |
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10-27-10, 07:18 AM | #46 | ||||||||||||
Nope. I'm actually quoting it from my Sociology teacher. I happen to agree with him.
The first schools for children were created by the church, with the intention of teaching kids to read the Bible, to sing songs, to memorize prayers, etc. Before that, schooling was only available to the nobles and they had to pay big money for it. Medical care for peasants? The church. Help for the poor? Church again. See where I'm getting at? Want more recent examples? Okay. Take the US. By the way, I'm not pulling this out of my ass, it was Tocqueville that studied this topic. The US democracy is different from European democracy in the sense that it is very focused on the individual and not on the society as a whole. It encourages individualism, competition and generally doesn't encourage solidarity. There is no incentive for people to organize themselves in a community. There is a "void" created within the system, and it is thanks to religion that this void is filled. People organize themselves in communities because of religion. People don't act like douchebags with one another because of religion. If the state doesn't tell them not to act like douchebags, it's religion that does it. The state only guarantees human rights, there's no moral, no feeling of belonging to a community. And it is exactly this that makes it a democracy. It's a democracy because it is neutral, because it doesn't favor one moral over another. It leaves people the freedom to choose what moral they want, be it religious or not. All societies need a moral code to function properly. If the state doesn't provide it they will go to religion, or invent their own morals. But most of the times, they happen to coincide with religious morals (don't kill, don't steal, etc).
By subjective, I meant that they take the premise that what religion wishes to transmit is fake, then build their arguments around that. Religion is SO much more than 'the world was created like this' and 'you have to do this or that else you go to hell'. Religion wasn't just dreamed up by some guy high on opium one day. Religions were developed by intelligent and dedicated people over the course of hundreds of years. Religion explained phenomenons of nature back when no one gave a rat's ass about it, encouraging people to be interested in these phenomenons and later leading to research and even science (I like to think at least one scientist decided to study science one day just to piss the Church off). Religion gave life meaning. Religion helped develop art and cultures. Religion has shaped our society for hundreds of years and continues to shape it even today.
All types of religion served the exact same purpose, the one I've blabbered about above. Be it Christianism, Buddhism, freaking Egyptian mythology. They all: 1. Tried to explain the world's origin and certain natural phenomenons 2. Gave people a moral code so as to not kill themselves 3. Encouraged the development of art, culture, philosophical thinking, literature, etc. In a nutshell, they all shaped the modern world. And the content is irrelevant, even more so as all the wold's religions have a lot of similarities.
Maybe they have a common origin, maybe God dictated them, maybe some guy high on opium thought it all up. Who knows. Who cares. Thank whoever's out there that they did, else we'd all still be in trees right now.
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10-27-10, 07:33 AM | #47 |
Religion has nothing to do with a god in a direct way.
Religion is not a matter of "need". Religion is typical for mankind and will always exist, whether it is very explicit or modest. |
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10-27-10, 09:18 AM | #48 |
@haylie
As you said yourself, religion helped to shape our world. What I think you are missing is the fact that it is in no way modern at all. It's the exact same people running around. You know, the ones who can kill each other and tear them self apart when no one teaches them not to do it and most importantly WHY they should not do it. Education is the keyword here, not state or religion. Those institutions where put in place for a reason. One purpose is education, which in turn leads to self awareness, science, all the things that can give live meaning without being like "omg look at my neighbour, he got something I want, let's kill him!1" I don't understand how you can make a bad thing out of religion and not at all blame society at the same time. Because todays society is lacking, too. It's right that all of the big (and probably all of the minor religions) did very bad things in history. Or things where done in the name of religion (which is a hughe difference to the religion telling you to do it). But that's mainly because religion is made by people for people and people can fail or even be a complete FAIL - no matter if they are politics, religious or a leader of whatever kind. Most, if not all of the time you can not blame the religion for it, but the people. I have a strong believe in ethics, in right and wrong. I consider myself a person with a strong belief, based on education in history, society and knowledge in general. Yet, I'm agnostic when it comes to believing in (a) God. Don't get me wrong here I don't consider myself supernatural, intelligent, or better than others in any way. The whole point is, that people don't need to follow one specific way, but the right one. And like I said before, everything that helps people to get on their way is good. Don't forget that people ARE DIFFERENT. Some have a strong believe in supernatural things. Some believe in NOTHING but what THEY CAN SEE with there own eyes. You can't step in and find a solution for all of the different type of people when you refrain from using all of the different types of ... connecting/communicating/getting through to/with people ... Again this topic is like "What is your favourite colour?" 1 Red 2 Yellow gogo vote... It shouldn't be that way.
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10-27-10, 09:21 AM | #49 | |
the holy inquisition and burning pagan healers and nursemaids to the stake, the crusades, the building of cathedrals in the midst of the black plague and gathering land and wealth that surpassed anything seen on the face of the earth to that point somehow skipped your professor's attention The medieval age is generally considered to be the 1000 years from around 450 to 1450. For the vast majority of this time illness was considered punishment for ones sins and intervening with destiny's path an act of prideful sin in itself. Surgery never gained the acceptance of the church till the end of this whole period. "Education" apart from the teaching of hymns consisted mainly of sermons terrorizing peasants (serfs in their majority) with fire brimstone and eternal damnation if they failed to serve their lords and church for the masses. |
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10-27-10, 09:51 AM | #50 |
While I love a good debate on religion and politics, it's generally the cause for most fights and flamewars on fora.
I've not read most posts in this topic and I will not do so in the future, simply because I'd end up replying to people and thus flaming a heated debate. Personally, (and here come the PMs calling me names lol) I believe in a universal energy, with both masculin and feminin sides. Why? Because it makes me feel good and at peace. Ultimately that is the sole purpose of a religion, imho, to help mankind be mankind. So for me, no matter what it stands for for others, the "witch" part of my nick *is* who I am. But I'd like to clarify, I don't cast spells, and I don't turn folks into newts :P I just believe that nature itself is deity and that what I send out comes back to me. (aka I wish bad to people, I'll get bad **** happen to me.) As far as mixing politics and religions : I too live in Belgium, and Led you may be the only one getting this, but I strongly feel that in Belgium the Church as religious institute has far too much power in our political landscape. Almost all parties (at least the bigger players) are Christian in Belgium, several religions got official recognition here, with their holidays acknowledged. Yet my own choice - and many others like myself - are forgotten, yet I too pay taxes, I too work, I too pay for social security. Can you see why I feel religion/politics aren't good topics :P I can't help but get on a damn soapbox. Led, let's talk about the recent sex scandals involving the Church here. Let's assume part of the stories are true, even if it's just one of them all. Prep won't get punished, perp will continue to receive benefits, pension, and wll live in some abbey for the remainder of his life. Do the same crime as non clergy, and you'll be in jail. That's what I call the remnants of power of the Church. Anyhow, my BP is about 10 points higher as it should be :P Last edited by MoonWitch : 10-27-10 at 09:53 AM. |
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10-27-10, 10:49 AM | #51 | |||||
You also failed to comment on the rest of my post and chose to bash only the parts that you had knowledge about. |
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10-27-10, 12:08 PM | #52 |
They never taught anyone to read, they taught people to sing hymns.
Reading skills was limited even among the upper classes and the clergy itself let alone the serfs (was non-existent) I don't have a grudge against you or religion I'm a "live and let live" person. I picked a specific part of your post not because I lack knowledge or opinion on the rest, but for reasons of brevity. Unfortunately it is so full of misinformation I'd need several walls of text to counter each point separately, so take it as an example if you wish, I picked the one I could reply to summarily. I like Neo-Platonism so much. Ofc the ideas are pure it's the imperfect human condition that taints everything. Such a pity we have to contend with realities and the human lives are shaped by actual social forces with political and monetary strength (like the church and institutions) and not abstract ideals. I have no grudge against any religion I have no need for it for my own person as I clearly stated on my first post. I make no special effort to like or dislike religious people as I wouldn't for race, age, ethnicity etc. I've enjoyed hours of conversation about the meaning of life the universe and everything with childhood friends that are deeply religious. Anyway I'm going to give this thread a rest for a while. I hope it goes back to being a bit more pluralistic but thanks for the exchange, agree or disagree it's still stimulating |
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10-27-10, 12:58 PM | #53 |
I, unfortunately, have neither the time nor the inclination at the moment to wade into this discussion, much as I would like to.
Instead, I'll just leave my favorite quote of late: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureat in physics Pretty much sums it all up for me.
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10-27-10, 01:00 PM | #54 |
Oookay, take the easy way out and call me misinformed while you preach yourself as the "nice person that doesn't wanna argue". You know, I think I preferred your trolling.
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10-27-10, 01:05 PM | #55 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
All those things weren't available for Joe the farmer because he was just a cheap/poor workforce. Constantly getting told everything would be alright once he get's into heaven where everyone is equal. The one who did actually benefit were once again the people with lots of money who could literally buy their way in, or the people who studied the word of god. They were the ones getting education (again, the word of god, nothing more), medical care, ...
Keeping people stupid but "comfortable" at the same time.
A state should make you feel like a community, you and me are both part of a community, it's called .. the state. No moral in the state? Didn't you say they all used the ten commandments? It's intelligence and experience that makes morality. And morality is dependent on the position you live in. Your morale would be very different if you lived in one of the execution camps during WW2. Do you think religious people wouldn't kill or steal in conditions that aren't perfect. Ofcourse they would, because they're human. Just like everybody else. And it's that humanity that makes our morale, be it by believing what your god has written on 2 stone tables, or be it your own experience, intelligence, ...
You say religion gave life a meaning, thus that also means you know the meaning of life. I would certainly like to know what the meaning of life is. If anything it forced their meaning of life onto other people. Religion indeed helped develop art and culture. Ofcourse when you only allow people to make 'god' inspired culture people would have to believe you're telling the truth yes? Huge amounts of men and women have been killed because they didn't agree and wrote/painted/whatever something that wasn't right in the vision of religion. Religion (and many other things) shaped our society for hundreds, thousands of years yes. And imo they held back our progression for hundreds of years.
I won't go into the whole pedophile problems the church has in belgium these times cause that's well .. another discussion I guess. But I do agree. I also don't understand how it's possible that we have a new archbishop who says that being gay is a disease like anorexia. Or that aids is basically a punishment for being gay. And that's the sort of guy that represents our country? No thank you.
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10-27-10, 02:26 PM | #56 | |||||||||||
Like I said, religion is a form of crowd control. Good or bad. Unfortunately democracy hadn't been around at the time, so the "government" had to use other means of subduing the masses, like oppression. Good or bad, it worked didn't it?
Stop trying to pitch the blame on God by the way. God didn't say that you had to pay for education and care. The Church did. Learn to spot the difference between what religion actually tells you and what things other people do "in the name of religion".
Intelligence makes morality, but what about non-intelligent people that can't go to school. Like, for example in underdeveloped countries? Who's gonna teach them and their parents what's moral and not? Of course people adapt to the environments they live in, and that's a good thing. I never claimed otherwise. Religion also adapts to the environment. Religion practices in Asia are different than those in Europe for instance. Don't forget that Christianism is not the only religion on the planet. There are only like a few thousand more. Some of them "adapted" from mainstream religions, according to people and society's needs. Which brings me back to my first post and that thing I posted about religion filling a void in society that is not filled by other means such as education, the state, etc. And just to be clear... in the last part of your post, you actually agree with me don't ya?
If you don't personally feel the need to be religious, that's fine. But maybe other people do.
Maybe some people are content with understanding nature as God's creation.
What was that thing again about people having different opinions? Also, make no mistake, I'm talking about modern day religion here. The one that doesn't kill you if you didn't obey. You know, as a form of crowd control.
PS - the evil church of the middle ages is not the only form of religion out there.
Crowd control is crowd control dude, good or bad. Gotta keep that society together. I could go on like this forever, but I'd just be repeating the same stuff over and over like a broken record. Religion was and is used either as a form of control over society (predominantly in the past) or as a source of moral code when nothing else provides it (which is mostly the case today). |
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10-27-10, 03:01 PM | #57 | |
We can never prove that something we can't detect doesn't exist. This does not mean that we must take the possibility of its existence seriously. |
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10-27-10, 03:38 PM | #58 | |
See, I have a rather strange take on religion. I consider myself an orthodox, but that's only because I was born in an orthodox family. Now, over the years, I've developed this ability to listen to all the things being thrown at me from religion, science, school, other people, etc. and decide for myself whether it is BS or not, whether it is satisfying or not. Now, science has told me HOW the universe was created, how life appeared on earth, how the laws of physics function, etc. What it never taught me and never will is WHY. Why was the universe created? Why did we evolve in this way and not another? (dolphin humanoids would have been so cool ) Why are the laws of physics the way they are? I found the answer to that in religion, or philosophy if you will. I believe there is a higher force out there that decided all these things, be it God, aliens, some mysterious force of the Universe that makes things be the way there are. I believe humans are here to search for that supreme being or concept. See, for me, science and common sense cannot explain EVERYTHING I need to know about the world I live in. I need religion for my understanding of the world to be complete. Now how does that prove your post wrong? Well, I for one found a reason to believe in God. Maybe different people have different reasons for believing in what they believe, empirical or not. You cannot judge a person's feelings and beliefs based solely on empirical evidence. You need empirical evidence to state a fact, not an opinion. Last edited by haylie : 10-27-10 at 03:40 PM. |
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10-27-10, 04:03 PM | #59 | |
I could never use lack of scientific evidence as a reason for even my own atheism. It seems too close to closemindedness. I'd rather just not believe because I have other beliefs. |
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10-27-10, 04:15 PM | #60 |
You totally and completely missed the entire point. Not all that surprising really since a lot of people in this thread are only seeing what they want to see, and not what people are actually saying.
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