WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 7

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Sepioth

What's the BIG deal ?? You CAN still make money off the mod .. you just can not advertise that in the actual game. IT'S their game, if they don't allow/want ANY advertising at all that's their choice. Advertise your website or place of distribution instead and put up a donation link.

I'll answer strictly for myself... I did it EXACTLY Bliz's way from June 1, 2008 through March 7, 2009 and made $300 in donations. I added an in-game notice at login that nUI is user supported software and depend on donations and added some extra raid panels as a thank you and an incentive to make a donation and I made $4000 in donations in 13 days.... and those two tools are the exact two tools Bliz said I can't do anymore.

So... yeah... I'm a little spun up.

EDIT: I note I did not force anyone to donate, I didn't set a minimum, I didn't ask for a subscription, I didn't ban anyone from using the mod... I just asked them for a donation where they could see the reminder and I gave them a benefit for being kind enough to support my effort.

Astrocanis · 03-21-09, 04:14 PM

I don't want to appear overly paranoid. (I am, but I don't want to APPEAR that way - and just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me. Whoever they is. Are.)

I'm making certain connections: Microsoft will now be making player-targeted in-game ads. Mod authors are asking for donations in-game. How do I give MS and exclusive if I can't keep those pesky addon guys from advertising? I mean, I can get big bucks for putting the WoW in the box of Wheaties. Or at least the Wheaties in the box of WoW. Or something of that sort...

Add to that the idea of Battle.net, and that MS will be "offering" their ad service, Massive, through Battle.net into games such as WoW and Guitar Hero, and there are millions of reasons to kill addons. And all the reasons are green. No, they aren't hybrids.

I, for one, can't wait to put an Officially Sanctioned By Major League Baseball San Diego Padres jersey on my Night Elf Resto Druid, although I am concerned that the material won't be "stretchy" enough to cover me once that big bear butt has its way. Followed by the appropriate sales taxes of course. But only after I have paid income tax for that in-game gold I've been grinding.

I wonder if Raid repairs and mounts will be claimable as business expenses?

Sepioth · 03-21-09, 04:21 PM

I understand that this affects you more than others .. especially the part where you can no longer give a little more if people donate but the MAIN reason for the extra income was BECAUSE you gave people more of the addon when they donated. NOT because you couldn't advertise in game

Chances are you would have probably STILL made the extra money even if you DIDN'T advertise that in your addon and still only had the download link here and on your website.

But I guess we will never now will we.

Just so you know the only part of the new policy I DON'T agree with is the part that affects you ... where you can't give people who donate a little something extra.

Slakah · 03-21-09, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Yhor

If that is all you took from my post, then you are the idiot. Their (blizzard's) actions have the potential to slaughter IP rights. That is what the big deal is.

I have already conceded. I know I went off base, but I won't be attacked and not respond.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law, finally comparing Blizzard to Nazi Germany is just plain wrong. Now can this be the end of this thread of discussion as it serves no really purpose.

twobits · 03-21-09, 04:22 PM

I for one find it very interesting that they do not call these rules, or terms or anything of the sort. They call them guidelines. I have had to write code before to conform to FDA regulations, and in doing so you are exposed to a ton of government written 'guidelines' of which the FDA almost considers to be regulatory law. Almost, you can however not follow the guidelines, if you are willing to document why you did so, and are willing to take the risk of an audit.

Now if FDA guidelines are just that legally, what the heck are blizzard 'guidelines' legally. While they say they may take legal action 'failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action. ' it would be very interesting to see on what grounds. For not following guidelines? Can't see that working, so they either are going to have to word this stronger which I think they have good reason for keeping them as guidelines and trying to get the community to enforce these as just 'guidelines' for now. It is interesting that this is the start of the slippery slope the EFF was warning against many laughed off at the time.

Sepioth · 03-21-09, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Astrocanis

I don't want to appear overly paranoid. (I am, but I don't want to APPEAR that way - and just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me. Whoever they is. Are.)

I'm making certain connections: Microsoft will now be making player-targeted in-game ads. Mod authors are asking for donations in-game. How do I give MS and exclusive if I can't keep those pesky addon guys from advertising? I mean, I can get big bucks for putting the WoW in the box of Wheaties. Or at least the Wheaties in the box of WoW. Or something of that sort...

Add to that the idea of Battle.net, and that MS will be "offering" their ad service, Massive, through Battle.net into games such as WoW and Guitar Hero, and there are millions of reasons to kill addons. And all the reasons are green. No, they aren't hybrids.

I, for one, can't wait to put an Officially Sanctioned By Major League Baseball San Diego Padres jersey on my Night Elf Resto Druid, although I am concerned that the material won't be "stretchy" enough to cover me once that big bear butt has its way. Followed by the appropriate sales taxes of course. But only after I have paid income tax for that in-game gold I've been grinding.

I wonder if Raid repairs and mounts will be claimable as business expenses?

I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with the MS in game ad system.

They will make money off of in game "billboards" (one of may ways)and such ... everytime a person sees that billboard on their screen money goes to someone somewhere.

If addons advertise a paid version of their addons in either a chat message or link in their addon .. this will not IN ANY WAY divert money from the ad system.

If addons use an in game ad system (as the new AD driven Carbonite does) this might have the potential of lower what they charge for ads in game on the official ad system.

So I really don't see how this new MS ad system is really to blame for this .. with the exception of Carbonit Ad.

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 04:27 PM

http://www.insidetech.com/news/artic...blizzard-games

Slakah · 03-21-09, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by spiel2001

http://www.insidetech.com/news/artic...blizzard-games

I don't understand how thats relevant to the new Addon Development Policy at all, waaaay off topic.

Yhor · 03-21-09, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Slakah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law, finally comparing Blizzard to Nazi Germany is just plain wrong. Now can this be the end of this thread of discussion as it serves no really purpose.

You tell me.

I have already conceded. I know I went off base, but I won't be attacked and not respond.

Equitoen · 03-21-09, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Slakah

I don't understand how thats relevant to the new Addon Development Policy at all, waaaay off topic.

Because people who support the new policy because it "gets rid of in-game advertising" no longer have a foot to stand on.

Sepioth · 03-21-09, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Yhor

You tell me.

Yhor ... just drop it ... you are either going to get this topic locked or give yourself a vacation from here. If you don't care either way then just delete your account and move on with your life ...

It's not worth it and Cairenn has already asked us to keep this civil .. please do so ..

If someone personally attacks you .. suck it up and report the post .. let the admins handle it.

Astrocanis · 03-21-09, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Sepioth

I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with the MS in game ad system.

They will make money off of in game "billboards" (one of may ways)and such ... everytime a person sees that billboard on their screen money goes to someone somewhere.

If addons advertise a paid version of their addons in either a chat message or link in their addon .. this will not IN ANY WAY divert money from the ad system.

If addons use an in game ad system (as the new AD driven Carbonite does) this might have the potential of lower what they charge for ads in game on the official ad system.

So I really don't see how this new MS ad system is really to blame for this .. with the exception of Carbonit Ad.

You missed my point entirely. If I am Blizzard/Activision/WhoeverItIsNextWeek and I need to entice Microsoft in so that I can take a piece of the action, I may need to give MS / Massive an exclusive right to advertise in my game.

I cannot give exclusive rights if I in any way allow the promotion of non-Massive advertised products in my game.

I'm aware that Carbonite is teh debbil (I disagree, for the record), but I think that it is pure happenstance. Blizzard made a snap decision which was "forced" by Carbonite - they didn't have time to make the deal with MS and still make it palatable to the general prison population, so they struck more quickly than they wanted to. As Sun-Tzu said, no plan ever survived first contact on a battlefield.

The community is playing into their misdirection at this point. I'm trying to point out, in my delusional way, that there is perhaps a great deal more to this than Carbonite's advertising.

In fact, if I were Bliz and I wanted to prevent that sort of activity, I'd have had a little meeting, one-on-one, with several of the more influential or successful addon authors and with sites like WowInterface and Curse to discuss "new rules" for advertising. I'd have put the paddle on the table to make sure that everyone was paying attention, but I'd have tried to gather consensus.

What Blizzard did was too sudden to have been well-considered. The Carbonite ads simply made them realize that they couldn't wait for long to ban this activity. It could even be that they had made certain assurances to certain people about the inviolability of their in-game controls, and Carbonite embarrassed them.

Truth is, I don't know. But, as a dedicated paranoid, I'm suspicious. Finally, as a self-confessed delusional idiot, I'm merely spewing nonsense onto this board. If it gets on anyone, let me apologize in advance.

Delmara · 03-21-09, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Slakah

I don't understand how thats relevant to the new Addon Development Policy at all.

It's relevant because according to the article the deal between Activision/Blizzard and Microsoft is an exclusive deal to Microsoft; meaning that Microsoft is the only entity allowed to advertise within Activision/Blizzard's content.

Given that information, I can see and understand the restrictions on advertising in game. However, that does mean I agree with those restrictions and it by no means gives Blizzard the right to dictate how addon developers can market or sell their addon outside of the game environment. The addon is the property of the addon developer and therefore the developer of said addon can distribute as he or she sees fit.

Petrah · 03-21-09, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by twobits

I for one find it very interesting that they do not call these rules, or terms or anything of the sort. They call them guidelines.

Since those guidelines are placed in a policy, I would think that makes it to where they can legally enforce them. No?

Sepioth · 03-21-09, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Equitoen

Because people who support the new policy because it "gets rid of in-game advertising" no longer have a foot to stand on.

As i said in a few posts up .. what in game advertising from addons (other than the new Carbonite Ad version)???

HOW ON EARTH is an addon asking people for donations going to even REMOTELY affect how much Blizz can charge for in game ad revenue???

In game ads do not ask the consumer for money ..

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Slakah

I don't understand how thats relevant to the new Addon Development Policy at all, waaaay off topic.

Three reasons:

A... it speaks to the REAL motivation behind eliminating in-game solicitation --

B... it shows the hypocrisy of setting guidelines to prohibit advertising that users have the option to delete so you can cram ads they cannot delete down their throats

C... it makes the entire argument that for-pay addons are evil because they solicit in game moot.

Sepioth · 03-21-09, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Astrocanis

You missed my point entirely. If I am Blizzard/Activision/WhoeverItIsNextWeek and I need to entice Microsoft in so that I can take a piece of the action, I may need to give MS / Massive an exclusive right to advertise in my game.

I cannot give exclusive rights if I in any way allow the promotion of non-Massive advertised products in my game.

I'm aware that Carbonite is teh debbil (I disagree, for the record), but I think that it is pure happenstance. Blizzard made a snap decision which was "forced" by Carbonite - they didn't have time to make the deal with MS and still make it palatable to the general prison population, so they struck more quickly than they wanted to. As Sun-Tzu said, no plan ever survived first contact on a battlefield.

The community is playing into their misdirection at this point. I'm trying to point out, in my delusional way, that there is perhaps a great deal more to this than Carbonite's advertising.

In fact, if I were Bliz and I wanted to prevent that sort of activity, I'd have had a little meeting, one-on-one, with several of the more influential or successful addon authors and with sites like WowInterface and Curse to discuss "new rules" for advertising. I'd have put the paddle on the table to make sure that everyone was paying attention, but I'd have tried to gather consensus.

What Blizzard did was too sudden to have been well-considered. The Carbonite ads simply made them realize that they couldn't wait for long to ban this activity. It could even be that they had made certain assurances to certain people about the inviolability of their in-game controls, and Carbonite embarrassed them.

Truth is, I don't know. But, as a dedicated paranoid, I'm suspicious. Finally, as a self-confessed delusional idiot, I'm merely spewing nonsense onto this board. If it gets on anyone, let me apologize in advance.

If Carbonites new free ad version is the problem (which I can see it as being the ONLY problem) then why the ban to also deny addon developers from advertising a donation?? Ban developers from encrypting there code?? Ban the developer from selling a more enhanced version either by donation or subscription??

If the the problem was a competing ad system then why not make the policy to ONLY ban the use of private in game ads system for addons?? Why add all the other stuff in there too??

Jumpee · 03-21-09, 04:47 PM

I don't solicit funds for my addons (I know it would be useless) so I don't have a dog in this fight and the policy doesn't bother me one way or the other. But it could just be a "cover your ass" move by Blizzard. In other words they state a policy but have no real intentions of enforcing it. It's just there in case something bad happens.

Tristanian · 03-21-09, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

Since those guidelines are placed in a policy, I would think that makes it to where they can legally enforce them. No?

This is pretty controversial. It's a policy, it is not a part of the EULA/TOS and users are not required to agree to it, or sign anything, which brings us exactly to what most people have mentioned already. It would not be in Blizzard's best interest to attempt to enforce many of the 'guidelines' stated in the new policy. Most of it, is really a protective mechanism, a countermeasure to prevent things that they view as detrimental or harmful to the game, or generally their business model. As much as I may disagree with a lot of stuff on that policy, it is well within Blizzard's rights to invoke it, whenever they feel its necessary.

Astrocanis · 03-21-09, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Sepioth

If Carbonites new free ad version is the problem (which I can see it as being the ONLY problem) then why the ban to also deny addon developers from advertising a donation?? Ban developers from encrypting there code?? Ban the developer from selling a more enhanced version either by donation or subscription??

If the the problem was a competing ad system then why not make the policy to ONLY ban the use of private in game ads system for addons?? Why add all the other stuff in there too??

The iron was still hot? Perhaps they're channeling Rahm Emmanuel? I don't know. As I stated, I'm merely delusional. I'm sure my intellectual superiors will easily dismiss my fantasies.

Is it not possible to kill two birds (or more), with one bird-shot explosion?

The only thing of which I'm absolutely sure is that this announcement does not carry forward the traditional Blizzard fuzziness in either content or presentation. There has been no effort to placate any of the Addon community (or at least no visible effort - and based on one of the more notorious experts, Cogwheel, I'm tempted to believe the first assertion), no effort at introducing the concept of a pillow and no effort to build any kind of concensus (other than the obvious one of banning "lesser beings", which I am apparently one of). On the heels of an announcement in which they are partnering to "offer" targeted in-game advertising within World of Warcraft, I know it's silly of me, but I can't help wondering if there is any connection and what connection there may be.

Obviously I am not to be trusted. I need to find those pills before I break out into a purely psychotic episode and start doing my RickRoll imitation - it's pretty good, if I do say so myself.