Can UI addons cause BSOD and reboot?

Ambrya · 11-17-08, 10:11 AM

I'm trying to troubleshoot an issue I'm having without stripping my game of all my addons as the first step, because honestly I don't know if I would even be able to play without them in order to test whether or not they are causing the problem.

About the same time patch 3.0 went live, my mainboard died and we installed a new one and I went through the rigmarole of reinstalling all my programs, including the game. I never got to play the game on my old mainboard after patch 3.0 so I have no way of knowing if this is something relating to the patch or to my mainboard.

I'll be playing the game just fine, and suddenly the graphics will go all glitchy. Certain parts of the screen will be flashy and weird colors (almost like photo negatives) and pixelated. The only way to fix this is to /quit out of the game and restart the game--and usually when I do that while having this problem (and sometimes when not having this problem, when I just exit the game for normal reasons) after the 20 second countdown is completed, my monitor will go black for a good 10-20 seconds, then a BSOD will flash very briefly and my computer will spontaneously reboot.

I can't get a long enough look at the BSOD to figure out what it says--it's only on-screen for maybe half a second before the reboot. A couple times instead of the graphics glitch, the game has just frozen on my and required a manual reboot.

I'm trying to ascertain whether it's even possible for this to be a UI problem before I subject myself to the long process of going through removing my addons and adding them back one by one until I find which one, if any, is causing the problem. If it's not possible, then I'll start looking at reinstalling the game, graphics drivers, rebuilding the computer, whatever.

Yhor · 11-17-08, 10:37 AM

Can't be 100% certain with the information given, but it sounds like a heat issue, a graphics card issue, or a power supply issue.

More info would be needed to give better instruction, but with what info you did give, the below questions seem 'obvious' but are the 'standard' when having problems of your nature. I've only ever seen one 'addon' do what you described, and it was only during alt+tabbing (and was listed as a known problem in the Readme.doc).

Ask yourself the following questions, and if you feel that all below does not apply to your system, list addons and info about your system (video card you use, power supply size, processor/mother board description, and how much RAM you have).

1) Have you upgraded you video card recently (or anything other than just MB)?

2) Have you cleaned the dust out of fans, made sure fans are all working, and guarded your computer from outside heat sources (your box is not on a heating vent or near a major heat producing appliance)?

3) If the answer is yes to both 1 and 2 (and you are certain you cleaned well and fans are working properly), you may need a power supply that's capable of powering your new components, or old power supply may just be struggling.

pompachomp · 11-17-08, 10:37 AM

That is a problem with your video card drivers.

Yhor · 11-17-08, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by pompachomp

That is a problem with your video card drivers.

Thanks, I knew I was forgetting something.

Ambrya · 11-17-08, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by pompachomp

That is a problem with your video card drivers.

Thank you, I thought I had the latest and greatest video drivers installed with the rebuild, but maybe not. I will try to upgrade before I give Yhor the information he asked for (the answer to his 2 questions are No on the upgraded video card and yes on the clean fans/power supply.)

Ambrya · 11-17-08, 11:34 AM

I re-installed my video drivers, but it does turn out that the drivers I downloaded are the same version as the ones I already have, so I'm not confident that this is going to solve the problem, but maybe the reinstall will help if something was corrupted. *shrug*

Just in case, I'm going to answer Yhor's request for more information:

First off, when looking at my system configuration, I realized that I was mistaken in my answer to the first question. Something else did change when my husband installed the new mainboard--he gave me an extra gig of ram out of his now defunct desktop. I'm not sure what kind of ram it is, but I know it's pretty old--I don't remember the last time he upgraded the ram on that machine, but the machine itself has been dead for at least a couple years and I don't recall him upgrading the ram anytime before that. It might not even be DDR.

So what I had is:
AMD Athlon 64 3500+
2.20 Ghz, 2 GB Ram (one pair of which is of questionable age)
Windows XP service pack 3
PCI-E GeForce 8600GT 512MB DDR2 running the latest drivers
I'm not sure about my power supply size, how would I find this out?

As for addons, I'll break them down into those I can't live without and those I can.

Can't live without:
CTMod
Auctioneer suite
MyBags (with Ace as a dependency)
GoGoMount
LightHeaded
TomTom
UberQuest
Advanced Tradeskill Window
EquipCompare

Could live without, but not happily:
AutoAspect
AutoProfit
Ace2 (unless its a dependency of one of the first category of addons, I don't remember which ones need it)
Accountant
Advanced Tradeskill Window Levels
DeadlyBossMods (if I ever start pvping or raiding again this will go into the first category)
DepostiBox
FishingBuddy
Fizzwidget Feed-O-Matic
Fizzwidget FactionFriend
Fizzwidget Levelator
NugMiniPet
Overachiever
PetList+
RecipeBook
ScrollingCombatText
TipTac
UrbanAchiever
XPtoGo

I think that's the complete list. There's one in there called EnhTooltip, but I think it came with a different mod, because it's not on my favorites list and I can't find it here on the site anywhere so I don't know what it does or where it came from.

Xenoronin · 11-17-08, 12:01 PM

At most addons could crash WoW but even that is rare. Even rarer still are the chances it would cause what you seem to be having.

If you have another PC at home or even parts which you could swap in and out it would be handy.
First up is swapping the graphics card out and checking if that is the problem. Use the onboard graphics if necessary.
Check your PSU, that all the connections are secure and it isn't faulty.

Download CPUZ and check your temperatures. It could be a CPU issue.

RosyBijou · 11-17-08, 12:08 PM

We got a new desktop. Everything was working well with WoW. I thought I was in heaven...

Then after a patch, I started having exactly the same experience that you described. After A LOT of exploring, I found that the video card on my new uber-computer wasn't the best match for WoW. (Updating my drivers wasn't enough.) So, I ended up purchasing a new video card--one that was compatible with WoW... and low and behold, my power supply wasn't enough to support the machine with the new get-up...

I got lucky tho, because when I had the video card installed, I had specifically asked the technicians to be sure to check that the current power supply would support the new card. After much condescending reassurances, they sold me the card and installed it for me...

(Before taking the computer home,) I asked them to boot up the computer and I launched WoW in the store -- the unit powered down. After consulting the manager, they ended up giving me the appropriate power supply because I had made it clear that i would have purchased a less expensive card if my machine couldn't support the better one... So I ended up with a very nice card (and better power tossed in for having received bad advice!) The boxes of the new cards specify what power specs they require.

WoW, (and the machine in general), run like a dream now. No graphical issues or powering off since...

Advice about your adds tho, if you're concerned that one might be causing you some issues-- make a back up of your interface folder and wtf folder. Then pare down those that you think you can live without. (Then you'll have the peace of mind knowing that you can easily restore your adds and settings...) Also, I've been checking for updates on my adds every few days and re-installing fresh copies as they come available... If it's not Wrath compliant, I'd remove it until the author updates it.

Good luck!

Here's a link to the page that has the compatible video cards: http://us.blizzard.com/support/artic...d&pageNumber=1

(So, mine is a GeForce 8600 GTS (but it's only 256 MB)--so it would seem that your card should OK--it's on the "good" list ... I'd check your power... (my video card needs "400 watt power with a min of 26 amps on the +12 volt rail"--whatever that means...!)--but your power supply unit inside your computer should have a sticker telling you it's exact specs so you can see if you have enough juice...

Here's Blizzard's help page on troubleshooting graphical errors:
http://us.blizzard.com/support/artic...=&pageNumber=1

FrankN · 11-17-08, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ambrya

Something else did change when my husband installed the new mainboard--he gave me an extra gig of ram out of his now defunct desktop. I'm not sure what kind of ram it is, but I know it's pretty old--I don't remember the last time he upgraded the ram on that machine, but the machine itself has been dead for at least a couple years and I don't recall him upgrading the ram anytime before that. It might not even be DDR.

So what I had is:
AMD Athlon 64 3500+
2.20 Ghz, 2 GB Ram (one pair of which is of questionable age)

Not a good idea combining 2 different types of RAM (if they are different).
Can bring up a lot of nice blue screens and bad behaviour of the computer.

Originally Posted by Ambrya

I'm not sure about my power supply size, how would I find this out?

Open the computer case and have a look on the power supply casing.

Originally Posted by Ambrya

Auctioneer suite

Originally Posted by Ambrya

There's one in there called EnhTooltip

EnhTooltip belongs to the Auctioneer suite.

tiker · 11-17-08, 12:27 PM

I've had similar problems in the past and got past them.

Download hwmonitor from www.cpuid.com

This program will show you the temperatures read from the various components that support reading. On some system boards it will also show the voltage information from the power supply.

In my case, the -3.3v line was at around -8v which is bad. Replacing the power supply in my case fixed the problem. If yours is off it could be a reason for your system board to fail and the on-going problem with your video card.

Ambrya · 11-17-08, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by RosyBijou

Then after a patch, I started having exactly the same experience that you described. After A LOT of exploring, I found that the video card on my new uber-computer wasn't the best match for WoW. (Updating my drivers wasn't enough.) So, I ended up purchasing a new video card--one that was compatible with WoW... and low and behold, my power supply wasn't enough to support the machine with the new get-up...

How did you find out your video card wasn't good for WoW? I know the video card used to work fine for WoW because it's the same card I had before I upgraded my mainboard and patched to 3.0--unless 3.0 made the card obsolete, it shouldn't be that.

It could be an issue with the power supply and the new mainboard, though. I will have to investigate that after we remove the extra gig of old ram that got added.

Advice about your adds tho, if you're concerned that one might be causing you some issues-- make a back up of your interface folder and wtf folder. Then pare down those that you think you can live without. (Then you'll have the peace of mind knowing that you can easily restore your adds and settings...)

Yeah, this is probably what I will do if troubleshooting other stuff doesn't work. The problem with that sort of troubleshooting is that I can run the game for an hour or two before having this problem, so basically troubleshooting addons would mean installing one addon, playing for several hours until I'm confident there is no crash, then installing another addon, playing for several hours, 20 or more times. It would take weeks, because I only get to play a couple hours a day.

Also, I've been checking for updates on my adds every few days and re-installing fresh copies as they come available... If it's not Wrath compliant, I'd remove it until the author updates it.

Good luck!

I usually check on a daily basis and all my addons are current.

Ambrya · 11-17-08, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by FrankN

Not a good idea combining 2 different types of RAM (if they are different).
Can bring up a lot of nice blue screens and bad behaviour of the computer.

Yeah, the more I get feedback on this, the more it looks like that extra memory might be a problem.

EnhTooltip belongs to the Auctioneer suite.

Good to know, thanks.

Ambrya · 11-17-08, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by tiker

I've had similar problems in the past and got past them.

Download hwmonitor from www.cpuid.com

I will try this, thanks!

FrankN · 11-17-08, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ambrya

Yeah, the more I get feedback on this, the more it looks like that extra memory might be a problem.

Just check the RAM settings: http://www.memtest.org/

Do it pairwise, the original and than the new one. If clockage and timing (CAS) is the same in most cases it should work.
But abort the testing it could take a "little while".
Clockage and CAS will be showed like that: http://www.memtest.org/pics/amd64-big.gif

EDIT: To stupid to use proper tags

RosyBijou · 11-17-08, 12:39 PM

didn't see that you'd been responding to post so quickly!-I had been editing my post above to include the links showing the compatible cards as well as another troubleshooting link--(so do check back up there on my first post for those links.....)

also, there are resources on the web that will enable you to see what ram chips are compatible with your machine. Here's one that I found, (but I'm not recommending that you purchase anything from them!-- http://www.corsair.com/configurator/ ), just to give you an idea of how careful you need to be when adding parts--have to make sure that everything is compatible!

Mera · 11-17-08, 12:59 PM

I could tell you when I experienced such problems it was always memory RAM problems as previously mentionned, memtest86 is THE tool you must run at boot each time your system freezes, unexpected crash etc. Anytime your defective memory region is used you could expect such behaviours. memtest86 is really a must have tool, if the test fails then you have a bad memory slot, remove one and try again and again until it does not fail to sort out the dead memory slot, happened to me 2 times here in about 5 years.

Gemini_II · 11-17-08, 02:31 PM

Definitely a hardware issue. I would test the RAM as described, but last time I personally had a problem like what you describe, my Power Supply was packing it in. Seen same thing on CPU and Video Card failure though too. Check RAm first as its prob the cheapest to replace.

Yhor · 11-17-08, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Gemini_II

Definitely a hardware issue. I would test the RAM as described, but last time I personally had a problem like what you describe, my Power Supply was packing it in. Seen same thing on CPU and Video Card failure though too. Check RAm first as its prob the cheapest to replace.

It was my first thought as well (PSU). Is it possible it could be the culprit of MB failure to begin with, if it has a short or is 'surging'? I've heard of it happening before by word of mouth, but I've never seen it firsthand or known someone who could confirm it firsthand. Without spare parts though, it can be a hassle tracking it all down. Let us know if/when ya get fixed up and what seemed to fix it. Good luck.

**Shirik** · 11-17-08, 07:42 PM

The easiest answer is to say that BSODs can only be caused by Kernel-mode code. That means only the operating system kernel itself and drivers that run in kernel mode can truly cause a BSOD.

That being said, an addon could theoretically trigger a BSOD if there were a bug in one of the two aformentioned systems. The easiest thing to "break" would be the video card driver. That being said, if an addon does manage to do this, no matter how malicious it might intend to be, that is a bug in the driver or the kernel, not the addon itself. (However, it may be in best interest to "fix" the addon as that is certainly an easier endeavor.)

dcblalock · 11-17-08, 09:36 PM

I'd say it is almost certainly mismatched RAM. I had same issue with seemingly random BSoDs, although most often when playing WoW or other online games. I tried new drivers, new video card, new power supply, fresh re-installs of OS and games, to no avail. Finally, after reading that in verious Tech forums that it can be a coin toss when mixing different brands of RAM in many PCs, I happened on a good deal on some RAM that was of the same make as two of the four sticks I had in my PC. I decided to give it a shot and bought and installed the new RAM, removing the two odd sticks and pairing the like kinds together. I have not have an issue with crashes or blue screens since. You could start by just removing the RAM that you recently added to your system and see if you continue to have issues, then decide whether or not to upgrade with new sticks. Memory is pretty inexpensive these days ...